Russian SU-30 Vectored - Page 3

SUBMAN1 · 02-22-09, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

They don't have to as long as they can completely deny you their airspace at will.

-S

nikimcbee · 02-22-09, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

With all of the technology manufacturing that has moved to china, I wouldn't be surprised if they catch up quickly.

Jimbuna · 02-22-09, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

They don't have to as long as they can completely deny you their airspace at will.

-S

But is that not why the US is leaning more towards stealth techniques/equipment?

nikimcbee · 02-22-09, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

They don't have to as long as they can completely deny you their airspace at will.

-S

But is that not why the US is leaning more towards stealth techniques/equipment?

don't worry, HRC will level the playing field and give them the technology.

SUBMAN1 · 02-22-09, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

But is that not why the US is leaning more towards stealth techniques/equipment?

Exactly the whole point of this conversation.

-S

Raptor1 · 02-22-09, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

I think WWII more than answered that question...

SUBMAN1 · 02-22-09, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

I think WWII more than answered that question...

Not really. The problem is, the allies denied the production capability of Germany by denying German air superiority. If the Germans made the XXI, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of ME-262's, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of the Panthers, or if they managed to get enough fuel to run their army, you might be speaking German right now.

So, if there is an answer to the question of quality vs quantity, WWII showed that quality will win the day any day of the week, but it is all in balance.

A better war to look at to answer this question would be the Isrealie wars. Outnumbered 10 to 1 with MiGs on one side and F-15's and F-16's on the other, they scored 74 kills without a single loss! Sounds to me that quantity means nothing when up against the right quality.

Example - 10,000 screaming people with sticks and stones against a single M1! Who wins?

-S

nikimcbee · 02-22-09, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

I think WWII more than answered that question...

Not really. The problem is, the allies denied the production capability of Germany by denying German air superiority. If the Germans made the XXI, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of ME-262's, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of the Panthers, or if they managed to get enough fuel to run their army, you might be speaking German right now.

So, if there is an answer to the question of quality vs quantity, WWII showed that quality will win the day any day of the week, but it is all in balance.

A better war to look at to answer this question would be the Isrealie wars. Outnumbered 10 to 1 with MiGs on one side and F-15's and F-16's on the other, they scored 74 kills without a single loss! Sounds to me that quantity means nothing when up against the right quality.

Example - 10,000 screaming people with sticks and stones against a single M1! Who wins?

-S

In Clay Blair's book, he said the US wasn't that impressed with the actual quality of the XXI (the component quality, not the design) All that bombing made a differrence, I guess. I don't remember, but I think he said most of the boats had been slapped together.

Raptor1 · 02-22-09, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

I think WWII more than answered that question...

Not really. The problem is, the allies denied the production capability of Germany by denying German air superiority. If the Germans made the XXI, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of ME-262's, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of the Panthers, or if they managed to get enough fuel to run their army, you might be speaking German right now.

So, if there is an answer to the question of quality vs quantity, WWII showed that quality will win the day any day of the week, but it is all in balance.

A better war to look at to answer this question would be the Isrealie wars. Outnumbered 10 to 1 with MiGs on one side and F-15's and F-16's on the other, they scored 74 kills without a single loss! Sounds to me that quantity means nothing when up against the right quality.

Example - 10,000 screaming people with sticks and stones against a single M1! Who wins?

-S

Of course a certain numbers ratio would make quality better than quantity, but it is often the side that has quantity has an overwhelming advantage in it

That all changes during special cases, where the side with the numbers can't touch the side with the quality, but that rarely happens (10,000 people with sticks and stones can't damage an M1)

nikimcbee · 02-22-09, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

As much as their weapons systems (Chinese included) are improving, I don't ever envisage them catching up with most of that produced by some western nations, in particular the US.

But that then begs the question: What is best, quality or quantity?

I think WWII more than answered that question...

Not really. The problem is, the allies denied the production capability of Germany by denying German air superiority. If the Germans made the XXI, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of ME-262's, or if they managed to produce decent numbers of the Panthers, or if they managed to get enough fuel to run their army, you might be speaking German right now.

So, if there is an answer to the question of quality vs quantity, WWII showed that quality will win the day any day of the week, but it is all in balance.

A better war to look at to answer this question would be the Isrealie wars. Outnumbered 10 to 1 with MiGs on one side and F-15's and F-16's on the other, they scored 74 kills without a single loss! Sounds to me that quantity means nothing when up against the right quality.

Example - 10,000 screaming people with sticks and stones against a single M1! Who wins?

-S

Of course a certain numbers ratio would make quality better than quantity, but it is often the side that has quantity has an overwhelming advantage in it

That all changes during special cases, where the side with the numbers can't touch the side with the quality, but that rarely happens (10,000 people with sticks and stones can't damage an M1)

How fast can he re-load?

SUBMAN1 · 02-22-09, 02:49 PM

As i said - the Israeli war. Outnumbered 10 to 1 against the MiG's. They still shot down 74 aircraft without 1 single loss.

-S

nikimcbee · 02-22-09, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

As i said - the Israeli war. Outnumbered 10 to 1 against the MiG's. They still shot down 74 aircraft without 1 single loss.

-S

I'd say training has a lot to do with that. I think, during the first Gulf War, if we switched equipment with Iraq, we would have still kicked their a$$es.

Raptor1 · 02-22-09, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

As i said - the Israeli war. Outnumbered 10 to 1 against the MiG's. They still shot down 74 aircraft without 1 single loss.

-S

Hmm, are you talking about a single war specifically, or just the whole conflict in general?

SUBMAN1 · 02-22-09, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I'd say training has a lot to do with that. I think, during the first Gulf War, if we switched equipment with Iraq, we would have still kicked their a$$es.

The Syrians and Egyptians were well trained in the above encounter.

Usually what happens when you lack training is that the pilots would refuse to go up.

And I don't agree with the training portion in Iraq. If they only knew basically how to operate the aircraft and weapons systems, they would have still kicked ass, though maybe not as dramatically.

-S

SUBMAN1 · 02-22-09, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

As i said - the Israeli war. Outnumbered 10 to 1 against the MiG's. They still shot down 74 aircraft without 1 single loss.

-S

Hmm, are you talking about a single war specifically, or just the whole conflict in general?

Whichever one it was in the late 70's, early 80's. I remember reading a pilots account of the conflict.

-S

02-22-09, 02:49 PM	#41
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	As i said - the Israeli war. Outnumbered 10 to 1 against the MiG's. They still shot down 74 aircraft without 1 single loss. -S __________________