He hoped the network would balance negative portrayals of Muslims

[Platapus]

Another interpretation on whether Honour Killings are a part of Islam. These two sources say no.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543392

In response to the question:

Respected scholars, As-Salamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatu Allah wa Barakatuh. What does Islam say about honor killings? Does Islam really have a concept of honor killings, most of the victims here are females; so does Islam really order to kill females in the name of honor?

Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we do really appreciate your question, which shows how far you are interested in getting yourself well-acquainted with the sound teachings of Islam. May Allah bless your efforts in pursuit of knowledge and may He keep us all firm in the straight path!

Sister, it’s a well-known fact that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it. In the Glorious Qur’an, Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

`Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community." (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Focusing more on your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.

First of all, in order to sanction killing, it must be through a binding verdict issued by an authoritative law court. Individuals themselves have no authority either to judge cases or pass judgments. Therefore, a Muslim should not sanction such killing because doing so will be leading to the rule of the law of the jungle. A civilized society cannot be run by such laws.”

Shedding more light on it, Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:

“Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

The so-called “honor killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.

It goes without saying that people are not entitled to take the law in their own hands, for it’s the responsibility of the Muslim State and its concerned bodies to maintain peace, security, etc., and to prevent chaos and disorder from creeping into the Muslim society.”

Moreover, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council, adds:

“In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge.

Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment.”

Sister, if you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

and
http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/pub.../may/clpub.asp

The article is too long to quote here but it is written by James Emery who is an anthropologist and journalist. Information for his article was obtained through interviews and research conducted in North America, West Asia, and the Middle East.

In the article he also emphasis that Honour Killings are not "authorized" in the Qura'n nor in Islam

[SandyCaesar]

Looking through all that, I'm even going to take a page out of Frederick Forsyth's book and assert that the ultraconservative Muslims who do things like this aren't "fundamentalists" at all by its strict definition. Fundamentalist implies going back to its roots, and at its roots Islam is fundamentally not that different from the rest of the great religions of the world: thou shalt not sin, thou shalt honor Allah, etc. Put it this way: could the Christian crazies who bomb and kill in the name of Christ really be considered true to the core beliefs of Christianity?

Instead, crazy "Islamics" like that are comparable to the fanatics of any religion who take one point from it out of context, pervert it to their own meaning, and then parade it as the will of their God(s). What happened, I think, was that the religion sprung up in what was (and still is) one of the most conflicted regions in the world, and spread with such rapidity--as did Christianity--so that it wasn't long before it was being perverted left and right to the advantage of the various belligerents. Once that happened, religious fervor and manipulators did the rest. You can't really say that "honor killing"--which I believe was established as a tribal custom long before Islam existed--is really condoned by the same man who preached what is essentially the same set of core values as Moses and Jesus did before him. True, there are many, many differences, but "Thou shalt not murder" is central to all three religions.

[Aramike]

True, there are many, many differences, but "Thou shalt not murder" is central to all three religions.

...and yet "murder" is defined differently between the religions...

See, this is something that frustrates the daylights out of me ... why do people simply refuse to call a "Duck" a "Duck" when it comes to religion (especially Islam)?

The Koran explicitly allows for Jihad and the killing of so-called unbelievers and yet, whenever that fact is brought to light, Islamic-apologists (more accurately, anti-Christians who look for any reason to disparage Christianity) come out of the wood work. Seriously, it must be okay to encourage suicide bombings because, a few hundred years ago, the Crusades occurred, right?

I am not a member of any religion or religious belief system. However, having studied the tenets of Christianity and Islam, it is quite clear that Islam is the more modernly-violent religion. Unlike Christianity, so-called "extremist" Islamic views are supported by the inferred Islamic "mainstream".

Like it or not, this is the truth,. Just because it doesn't fit in your little box of "all religions are equally horrible", doesn't change the facts.

Maybe, just maybe, when people stop "spinning" reality and simply accept things for what they are we will be able to have an honest and open dialogue about the world's problems...

[Foxtrot]

Just some stats only from USA. These figures are from 2002 - 2003 and I am unable to find the latest stats. If this particular case is honor killing (though it is not mentioned anywhere and her parents are on their way for legal proceedings) then I think these figures are probably some national sport stats.

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

Source: http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Foxtrot

Just some stats only from USA. These figures are from 2002 - 2003 and I am unable to find the latest stats. If this particular case is honor killing (though it is not mentioned anywhere and her parents are on their way for legal proceedings) then I think these figures are probably some national sport stats.

MURDER. Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic violence, the euphemism for murders and assaults by husbands and boyfriends. That's approximately 1,400 women a year, according to the FBI. The number of women who have been murdered by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam War.

BATTERING. Although only 572,000 reports of assault by intimates are officially reported to federal officials each year, the most conservative estimates indicate two to four million women of all races and classes are battered each year. At least 170,000 of those violent incidents are serious enough to require hospitalization, emergency room care or a doctor's attention.

SEXUAL ASSAULT. Every year approximately 132,000 women report that they have been victims of rape or attempted rape, and more than half of them knew their attackers. It's estimated that two to six times that many women are raped, but do not report it. Every year 1.2 million women are forcibly raped by their current or former male partners, some more than once.

Source: http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

All are types of crimes that muslims commit even tens of times more often than non-muslim population, atleast in Europe.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Aramike

The Koran explicitly allows for Jihad and the killing of so-called unbelievers ...

The Western Bible also has passages calling for believers to kill unbelievers. It was common in many old religious texts.

Spend a little time waltzing through Deuteronomy and you will find similar thoughts.

5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

This was after a 10 second search, I am sure there is more gore in there.

People often forget how violent the bible is.

[Skybird]

Islam is both
-influenced by deeply patriarchalic-tyrannic social and especially family structures, and
-mixing with them to feed back on the mentality of people. so in case of Islamic people commiting a crime like described here, you always deal with a motivation that finds its legitimation in an ideology (Islam) that has embraced and was build upon this mentality (of the ancient arab tribal system), and with social habits that already existed before islam, and run parallel to it, but at the same time has become part of it.

The three theistic world religions all have or have had a very disturbed and inhumane relation to sexuality. The major branches of christianity has thankfully moved beyond this, so have most secular Jews, if I may call them that way to separate them from the fundamentalist nutheads that you find in every religion. but the basis of Islamic theology to which Islam refers until today, and threatens disobedience to them with Sharia, still embraces these ancient views in full. women are defined as a lower life form possessed by satan, and it is the man's duty to control the demons in her by a.) keeping them under tight control, and b.) to "ground" their basic demonic energy by controlled sexual intercourse. If you think this sounds hillarious, yes , it is. It is also a wonderful self-justification for man to hold women at his disposal and deal with them as he pleases - sexually, and as a work force at home as well. It is not a human being he is dealing with. It is worth less than a dog, and it is potentially a threat.

islam is obsessed with both sexuality, and a understanding of male pride and honour that has the constant supression of such sexual drives as a basis. It is deeply sexually inhibited in a psychopathologic meaning, and at the same time fixiated on sex. For German readers I can recommend you a whole book on the role of females in Islam and especially the fetishist obsession with the idea of a girl'S virginity, there is much more behind it than just that a bride has to be clean and untouched at marriage. Islam's relation to female sexuality is a deeply pathologic one - women being seen as objects and possessions are just a consequence from this.

And this, Neal, is the reason why I wrote - although you deleted it - that islam holds the Quran in one hand and it's #### in the other, you remember. maybe I shouldn'T have posted it all alone without explanation, and not in a state of angry emotions, that is true. But as a factual statement it is correct what I said.

Combine this with social circumstances that have been male-oriented and patriarchalic long since before islam arrived. In all Islamic countries where i ever have been, so many, many families I witnessed were the more dysfunctional and characterised by the father's tyrannic regiment and the appeareance order and functionality established by complete surrender of the females in the household, the more they tend to uphold their claim to consider themselves as truly islamic by the meaning of islamic teaching, which is expressed in the quran, and to some degree in the hadith. Young men grow up in a climate of sexual self-supression, which of course seeks outlets to the inner pressure, and this forms the motivation that makes many of them so receptive for what Westerners would call extremist views (but in fact are just Islamic views for the most) and a haughty, aggressive attitude towards females as well. Saying this as an ex-psychologist I must say that the social family constructions in Islamic societies are the most pressurised and most unhealthy and pathologic that I have ever seen in huge numbers, anywhere. They create frustrated male energy by routine - and this is what gives these socieites such a conflict-heavy, threatening dynamic.

It has been described in scientific research and literature that there is a link between the average age of a society, the ammount and role of young men in it - and it'S vulknerability to forming aggressive, expansionistic, and in modern context: terrorist tendencies. The more young sexually frustrated men you have - the more potential for violence, extremism and terrorism, conquest and war you have. If you look at the history of wars over the past millenias, this is old news, really, both in a context of the looting and raping at the end of a battle for a city, and the rise and fall of nations and civilisations.

Seen in this context, the assassination by beheading cannot be excluded from a religious context, and a cultural one as well. do not forget that isolam is polititics and relgion, and has long since molten with today's cultures and traditions in various places, like the ancient Greek heritage has molten into the western civilisation that formed our present. Like you cannot calculate the Greeks out of the Western world, you cannot calculate Islam out of such traditions - or such crimes. Mentality or culture, and ideology have been in bed for so many centuries that it is hard to separate them anymore. The pathologic and pathetic concepts of a male's pride and a family's "honour" today must be seen as a result of both. Islam's sick understanding of human relations between man and woman or course does nothing to help to ease the pressure from (unworthy, to say that loud and clear) cultural traditions, thus it puts even more oil into the flames. If such a family would live by concepts owing to a philosophy that bases on kindness and tolerance and self-control (almost unknown to islamic males: sexual self-control in the meaning of own responsibility, thus they try to control their drives by demanding females to stay out of sight), this would help to ease the pathology deriving from an arch-patriarchalic tyranny of the father as ultimate dictator in the family. remember, we talk of a patriarchalism that by far exceeds the sexual role models for mother and father in families living in the past 50 years in the West, and that secures it'S power by much more ruthless force, even violence, if needed.

I'm not shy to declare that the west's view of these "honour killings" is superior to these primitive culture'S claim that they must be respected for the barbarism that they propagate. Honour killings in families have nothing to do with true human honour, they are deeds of malice and of shame. They are acts of social terror, and murder for lower motives, and committed with explicit malice. The fact that such affected families act by the standards of the culture and religion that has formed them, does not change the much more important fact that they nevertheless are object to our western laws as long as they live in our homes and countries. Thus there cannot be a different sentence than the maximum penalty the law reserves for assassination for lower motives and with special malice (Mord aus niederen Beweggründen und erfülltem Tatmerkmal besonderer Heimtücke).

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

All are types of crimes that muslims commit even tens of times more often than non-muslim population, atleast in Europe.

Link?

[Skybird]

There is some truth in it, Tchocky. I have said that before, too. The German police's yearly statistics show that especially in youth crime and crimes done by young adults, Muslim immigrants are massively overrepresented, compared to native german young population or foreigners from non-Muslim countries. we also find in achademical studies time and again that the young, third generation of muslim immigrants are less integrated than expected, in ost cases are less integrated than their already badly integrated first generation parents, and actively resist integration, by decision. We also see that this talkign abiout euro-Islam does not mean anything to them, but that they form an even stronger claim to build an orthodox islamic identity.

In other words: its not becoming better, but it becomes worse.

Also, organised crime is in the hand of foreigners. As one example, while the role of the non-islamic italian mafia and Camorra are underestimated and nice-talked in official Germany (if we don't admit the problem, then it does not exist - sounds familiar, doesn'T it), they and the non-Islamic Russian Mafia as well nevertheless have given ground massively to Islamic Albanian organisations. Organised crime from the ME is on the march as well. Nobody wants to know - and even less want to speak it out.

Ah, this eternally young bird named "political correctness"...chirp-chirp...

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Ah, this eternally young bird named "political correctness"...chirp-chirp...

That's freaking me out too. No one dares to say what they think anymore.

BTW
I think someone once said:
If I chop off the head of my enemy and make a vase out of it it's culture. IF I go to jail for that it's civilization.

(I don't know anymore who said it and whether I quoted it correctly but I think he has had a point there)

[Happy Times]

There is also singns that these stats are being hidden from the public by media and goverments.


Finnish violent crimes 2007, all different types of homicides, robberies, rapes and assaults by nationality. Finnish statistic center doesnt have these in english.

This doesnt even include those with immigrant backround that are allready Finnish nationals. It also lacks big groups like Moroccans, Albanians etc..
I cant say what ethnicity the Swedes and Germans represent.


http://www.izrailit.net/maahanmuutto_rikostilastot.html


Suspects/per 1000 persons.

Finland 4.44
Russia 9.42
Sweden 14.37
Estonia 12.80
Somalia 55.85
Turkey 29.23
Vietnam 15.92
Iraq 55.01
Germany 1.81


I would be happy if others would post these from individual countries, many people are interested in this information hidden in statistics.

Another interpretation on whether Honour Killings are a part of Islam. These two sources say no.

Those sources are wrong , didn't you read HTs article ?:rotfl:
They are only honour Killings if they are by Muslims because its an arab thing , Which means of course when a Maronite kills his daughter for disgracing the family its because he is an arab and really a Muslim not a Christian .
And if someone else does an honour killing because it fits with their backward tribal culture then it isn't an honour killing because only Muslims do those so it doesn't count .
Simple isn't it , only Muslims do it so when other people do it its different .

People often forget how violent the bible is.

It's a good book , I like the part about showing no mercy and smashing babies skulls on the floor in front of their mothers ...but hey who said doing Gods work was all sweetness and light eh ?

[Skybird]

that is not as easy in Germany as it sounds. For political convenience, it is being refused to publish statistics sorted for national and ethnical origin, that is called racism, so if you want that, you need to adress personnel working in the affectedf fields (police, social work, federal offices) and have to combine their statements with the official statistics that only differ between Germans and non-Germans.

The official "Polizeiliche Kriminalitätsstatistik" by the Federal Police for 2007 lists between 20.1 and 30.8 percent of all criminals as "Non-Germans", depending on the crime category, counted over all the nation. But the share of non-Germans living legally in German population is just below 9%. If they would commit not more crimes than the German population, you would assume their crime share to be around 9-10%. The ratio shifts even more against foreigners if you take into account that the statistics does not differ between native germans, and foreigners who got German citizenship - these also contribute to the crime rate of "Germans". Over 20% of families in Germany have a migration background today (and for the sake of completeness: far over 40% of babies born involve a mother or father with migration background, but lets ignore that for this thread/posting). If you count these groups of the population out of the native german group, and add them to the group of people with a migration background (that the statistic call "Non-Germans"), you have an even bigger share of crime by foreigners, and a smaller ammount of crime committed by natives.

From social offices and services who from time to time publish their findings in the media, and in my case: from detectives I know, as well as projections done by these and independant institutions not falling under the official governmental policy, we know that in the categories of foreigner's crimes Albanians, Kurds, and especially Turks are the most prominent gang. On the other hand, Chinese and Japanese are almost non-existent in these categories, and all other groups of foreigners vary around the mean values. In major cities like Frankfurt or Berlin, giant families of several hundred members, coming from Lebanon and Afghanistan have become a very prominent problem, these criminal clans alone increasingly keep the police running.

The detectives that I knew, and who were of ME origin themselves since their agency only employs personnel from that region (on a side note: let'S try to have a German company running a policy of such ethnic selectivity: only native Germans - the uproar by immigrant organsiations and the political left would be deafening to your ears) , admitted freely that most of their "customers" were immigrants from turkey, and the ME. around than 80% of the people they caught, they said. They also said that these are far more violent and aggressive if being caught, than are native Germans. That's why I saw time and again that maybe they approached a suspect all by themselves, but if the suspect was a Turkish or ME-looking juvenile or person, they first took their handies and called their colleagues from neighbouring stores for assistance. Until late early last summer I jobbed parttime in a department store. Practically all incidents of riot and violent resistance I witnessed - were triggered by foreign-looking people. Never Asians, but almost always, if not always, Turks, some north-Africans.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Those sources are wrong , didn't you read HTs article ?:rotfl:
They are only honour Killings if they are by Muslims because its an arab thing , Which means of course when a Maronite kills his daughter for disgracing the family its because he is an arab and really a Muslim not a Christian .
And if someone else does an honour killing because it fits with their backward tribal culture then it isn't an honour killing because only Muslims do those so it doesn't count .
Simple isn't it , only Muslims do it so when other people do it its different .

It's a good book , I like the part about showing no mercy and smashing babies skulls on the floor in front of their mothers ...but hey who said doing Gods work was all sweetness and light eh ?

Il get back to you on that.
Now i have to prepare for a date with a fitness babe, tomorrow a model,
but you hold the fort here ok..

[Aramike]

The Western Bible also has passages calling for believers to kill unbelievers. It was common in many old religious texts.

Spend a little time waltzing through Deuteronomy and you will find similar thoughts.

Not to get into a Biblical discussion, but the New Testament has quite a different tone.

That being said, the Koran doesn't get a pass just because other texts contain questionable ideas. Why people seem the think so, I have no idea.