A few questions about the game

[smack]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

Ding ding ding ding.. give this man a cigar!

The water flowing over the stopped surface fo the blade makes one heck of a cavitation noise. Move the flat of your hand through water rapidly and you will get the idea.

Fair point, but there are different types of shafts and propellers. So depends. Maybe for it to slow down significantly so it is still rotating but not as fast as it was while you were going 25 kts in the simulation, that would add a missing piece.


Lol am I the only person who finds the propeller thing kinda getting rusty? lol All I wanted to say with that propeller is that small things can make the difference in game play and how the player perceives and enjoys the game as a result of excellent realism.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by smack

Bubblehead Nuke thanks for the input, but how can a stopped propeller make you noisier? I have been on a submarine

Have you SERVED on a sub or just toured one?

, the propeller stops because moving though the water creates sound that can be picked up by nearby vessels. It is called moving parts, when you have things moving in the water they emit sound.

See my post about the Kilo class submarine. Just because you are not turning the screw does not mean you are not making noise. In most cases, you can turn the screw quite a bit before the screw generated noise level exceeds ownships noise level.

And its simple physics, how can the propeller spin and the sub not go forward? Its designed to propel the sub and when the sub stops, the screw should stop as well. Thats why submarines stop their engines when somebody is coming in their wash or behind the subamarine and then perform a Crazy Ivan just to be sure.

See above post.

What you THINK you know may be FAR different from what things are.

Boats do NOT stop turning the screw to listen in the baffles. You have to be making headway in order to turn to DO the Crazy Ivan

The screws have to stop. Watch any movie with subs in it and you will see the propeler stops everytime the sub stops.

Where did I say that the screw does not stop spinning to stop? You can also turn ONE RPM and move BACKWARDS if you are against the current

A stop device for application to an outboard marine engine to retain the propeller against rotation while the prop nut is being tightened or loosened. The device is T-shaped and includes side wings and a vertical leg. The wings have slots which permit the device to be slipped onto a tail plate located above the propeller. The leg extends downwardly between the blades of the propeller and engages the blades to prevent propeller rotation.

Yeah, we call it the shaft locking device. With the shaft stopped it takes about 20 seconds to engage it. Btw, the boat can be moving at 20+ knots and you can Stop and Lock the shaft if you need to.

Thurst is made by faster and faster rotations, so how can a rotating propeller stop the submarine? Its like a bycicle, can you be at one place while turning the peddals? No.

Backing bell. greatest e-ticket ride on the boat from an engineering standpoint. All ahead flank and they order a emergency crashback. You slam the ahead throttles shut and open the astern throttles. The blade REVERSES and you come to a stop REAL DANG fast.

Or you can be slow and lazy. They ring up all stop. you close the ahead throttle and the propellor 'windmills' in the water stream. The drag of the screw will slow the ship and stop it eventually.

And I dont expect them to be fixed, I expect a patch that fixes them since it is the only way, unless the developers start thinking outside of the box and use different code for some of these things, for a good code writer its not exactly a head scratcher.

You don't expect them to be fixed yet you want a patch? This is confusing to me.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by smack

goldorak is right, Emersiveness is Realism. You can not have 1 without the other. As I mentioned have you seen the SH4 water graphics? WOW I mean you can not tell the difference between a real ocean and the one in the game (well in the game its better lol). The game is 6Gigs (not that big) and has more detail than SC and DW combined.

Every detail counts, its called SIMULATION, which means emulates reality, and you can't pretend you are really in a sub, when things like the propeller and the floating wire and graphics aren't realistic.

"Simulation" does not necessarily mean you can "pretend you are really there." All it means is that it is coded such that events occur in the program as close as technology allows to how they would happen in reality (realism). This is a mental, abstract, logical concept. Emersion--feeling like you are really there--is an emotional concept. Unless you think that thoughts are the same as feelings, it should be obvious that these cannot be the same.

A simulation can also be emmersive if that is what the designers want to focus on. But a program does not have to be emerisive to be a simulation--you could have a bare-bones program that simply tests for sonar detections based on several variable inputs that yields a binary result as an output, and it would still be a simulation, even though at no point would you ever feel like you're really operating a sonar. Nor does an emersive game necessarily have to also be a simulator--lots of FPSs will give you the feel that you're actually there being shot at but there is no attempt to make them realistic whatsoever. Hell, a good book can make you feel like you're there, even though nothing is simulated whatsoever.

If you say "you can't have one without the other" then you understand--perhaps subconsciously--that they aren't the same, but are complimentary. Realism in the simulation certainly helps emersion. But as you've noticed, when you were asking for more realism (but meant emersion) others started talking about the limits of realism because of a lack of available information--which has little to no bearing to what you've been advocating. Yet, you still insist on the fiction that they are the same.

I don't know why you and goldie seem to think that by trying to sort though the confusion that I'm somehow advocating that emersion doesn't matter. I never said that and I've already said that I think it does matter. But if you want to continue talking past other people here because you're talking about completely different things without realizing it, I'll leave you to it. Good day.

[smack]

^^^ I think we are all on different pages, never mind what I said in that quote. I was saying something totally different. "Goldie" got me confused. You are right on the simulation aspect



For BN: (hope on the same page)

1. About the Crazy Ivan, of course you have to be moving so you can bank to lets say X dgs to starboard/port so the sonar can detect the contacts. I am sure we are on the same page on this, since that was what I wrote. The way I wrote it might have been misleading.

2. It was mostly touring different classes of subs, It is part of my job to inspect them (pretty much all I can say), always wanted to become a captain, but knowing people that are, sometimes make that dream possible for a few minutes.

3. Yes or cavitation. Usually all ahead standard --> Flank (depending on different classes sometimes even at ahead 2/3s) at PD or Surface. Makes noise ratio exceed own ship hence getting detected.

4. Of course you can't listen in the baffles, thats why you perform the Crazy Ivan. I do it at 10 kts / left[or right] full rudder 360 dgs turn. If near surface, slower speed. Or you can use the towed array

5. Your comment refers to real submarines, we dont have current in the game as far as I know.

6. Yes, or more simply just order to reverse the screws. But thats real life its not in the game, unless you order going backwards and watch your speed decrease before doing so. The command you are referring to I believe is " Disengage the screw".

7. A patch would be great. You didn't have to asnwer that part, I was being a little skeptical about it.

Thanks for replying BN

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by smack

6. Yes, or more simply just order to reverse the screws. But thats real life its not in the game, unless you order going backwards and watch your speed decrease before doing so. The command you are referring to I believe is " Disengage the screw".

You can not just 'disengage' the screw. Granted, on the older S5W boats, you COULD disengage the shaft from the reduction gear, it was not something done lightly. If the clutch failed then you are stuck on the EPM. Also, those boats had a LOT less shaft horspower then say a 688 or newer. Thus a clutch was a workable solution for that powertrain.

The order I was refering to was 'All Stop'. You simply shut the throttles and let the boat coast down.

The OTHER order is 'Back Emergency'. This order is actively reversing the screw to stop the boat. If you do not come off the bell as you approach zero knots you then start making sternway. BTW: a submerged sub can be DIFFICULT to control in a sternway situation.

[Neptunus Rex]

Originally Posted by smack

Crazy Ivan is when a sub is behind another sub, and the sub that is in front has difficulties detecting the sub behind; most of the times because the screw is breaking up the signal. The submarine in front banks to the left or to the right (also could complete a whole 360 dgs) that is done so the sonar can detect anybody behind it by turning hence the screw wont break any signal coming from behind. That is why subs that come in the wash of other subs (behind it) are virtually silent to the enemy because they are coming in behind the screws.

I hope you understand now.

Anyway enough about the propellers lol... I hold my opinion on that piece of graphics but its not important anyways.

The noise mask at the screw is called "the baffles" and the manual I believe mentions it.


Thank you for answering the qs in the first post guys, really helped me make my decision even more solid!

What you've described is a "baffle clear" and has a pucker factor of 0.

A "Crazy Ivan" is NOT a baffle clear. They do what's called a "Williamson turn" so when they come 180 degrees about, they come back down the same track they just traveled and they increase speed too. It has a pucker factor of 6 or 7.

A slick crew takes precautions and can just watch.

[smack]

A Crazy Ivan is when a submarine makes a rapid and sharp turns in one direction or another so they can detect other submarines via the sonar, because sonar can NOT detect what is there right behind the submarine and that INCLUDES shifting of the baffles so the sonar can pick up anything behind your submarine.

Thats what it is in one sentence.


Here is a sketch that I made:

[Bubblehead Nuke]

What you showed is a simple baffle clear. Dead simple and just as easy to counter.

Geesh, OOD's would see this and wonder is they had a trainie at the conn on the other boat.

[SandyCaesar]

Supposedly that's no longer something to worry about in the open ocean with the advent of towed arrays, but not for older subs or in littorals, where TAs may not as useful. Still, most modern subs would just stream TAs in open oceans, wouldn't they?

Just a sidenote.

[kgsuarez]

I think at high speeds the only array that doesn't get washed out is the bow sonar. I forget what thread it was that covered this, but SeaQueen wrote a little bit about it.

I guess since the TA is being dragged through the subs wake it gets completely washed out, as do the conformal arrays. But since the bow of the boat is cutting through the water, there is less resistance or turbulence or something.

[BobbyZero]

Originally Posted by kgsuarez

I think at high speeds the only array that doesn't get washed out is the bow sonar. I forget what thread it was that covered this, but SeaQueen wrote a little bit about it.

I guess since the TA is being dragged through the subs wake it gets completely washed out, as do the conformal arrays. But since the bow of the boat is cutting through the water, there is less resistance or turbulence or something.

As far as DW goes, bow sonar also washes out at high speeds.
I wouldn't know exactly how bow sonar works in a real life sub, but I'd expect for it to wash out also at high speeds, simply because the water that flows over the bow part of the hull at such high speeds probably distorts the soundwaves that the array should "hear".

[smack]

Originally Posted by BobbyZero

As far as DW goes, bow sonar also washes out at high speeds.
I wouldn't know exactly how bow sonar works in a real life sub, but I'd expect for it to wash out also at high speeds, simply because the water that flows over the bow part of the hull at such high speeds probably distorts the soundwaves that the array should "hear".

That is correct, at high speeds the background noise (water) increases and becomes noisier, hence harder to detect other contacts. You can use the towed array/hydrophone, the background noise would still be high a bit but will be quieter to rely on because it is towed behind the ship instead of the hull. The sonar has limits due to the noisiness of your own ship. Thats why submarines use Nuclear Reactors and batteries and special blades that reduce the noise of your ship. When tracking I use small speeds. In the game the background noise increases after 10 kts. and becomes harder to track. So for tracking I would recommend below 10 kts.