Pause for thought differences in education.

[jlmurc]

I have been thinking about why despite enjoying both of the latest evolutions of Silent Hunter, both III and IV, I am always drawn back to hunting in the cold waters of the Atlantic and wonder if age and education is part of the reason. I have to say that WWII had only been ended 15 years before, almost exactly as I was born on the 9th May.

I was born in 1960 in Great Britain and have travelled widely both with my Father as a Royal Air Force Officer and as a member of the Armed Forces myself, so have enjoyed education in a variety of locations, but mainly in either state schools or those that were set up by the Military when overseas.

I am interested in hearing the thoughts of other skippers, who were born in the US or in countries around the Pacific Rim, because I have come to recognise that although, in study of modern history, I learn't about all of the important events of WWII, much of the focus was of the events in the European Theater of Operation, with only the major events of the Pacific War, being studied to any great depth ie Pearl Harbour, Singapore, Malaya and Burma,plus the invasions of the Island groups and of course the use of the atomic bomb. However we spent a great deal of time on the events of the war against Nazism, with lots of contact through family and friends of those who fought for the Allied cause as well as seeing some of the ongoing re-building in Germany, when my Dad was posted there. If you add to that films, books and other forms of entertainment and hobbies, I have a great deal of knowledge of the events of the war that were so close to this country, but it is only as an adult that I have taken a major interest in deeper examination of the war in the Pacific.

I feel that this may well be part of the reason that I enjoy playing the role of U-Boat Commander so much, as the Pacific Theater, was so far away and not as widely studied in education. I do for instance remember meeting veterans that would not under any circumstances buy any goods that were Japanese in origin and in the early 70's, whilst living in Cyprus, some superbly reliable motor cars went under the title Golt Gallant, with the Mitsubishi logos being hidden away, so as not to offend those who had fought in the far East.

So as this is a place where there seems to be interesting discussion, surrounding the reality of those events that we engage in/simulate in our learning and when on patrol, do others have any feelings or thoughts on my view?

In closing I do wish to state that this subject is for discussion only and is not intended to upset or cause hurt to anybody else.

I look forward to seeing the thoughts of others.

Aye,

John

[GoldenRivet]

As i was growing up in Rural Texas i had two heroes.

One was my paternal grandfather, he was a merchant marine, a sea captain complete with the white beard like you see in the movies, and a fine smelling high quality cigar never too far from reach. he was a man that to a 5 year old boy seemed large than life itself... and though his presence commanded respect, he was probably the kindest and most gentile human being i have ever known in my life.

His home, but a stones throw from Mexico Beach Florida had a large brass ships wheel in the front yard, complete with a flag pole and a brass bell.

Some of my earliest memories involve standing out there in his front yard, at 5 years old not even standing high enough to see over the ships wheel. I steered us through a lot of rough storms and around a lot of battleships and submarines in that front yard. and im almost sure of the fact that the bell drove the neighbors insane.

Being a sea captain, his home was replete with all things nautical and strange trinkets and what not from various parts of the world. As his area of responsibility was primarily the Atlantic ocean, most of the items within his museum of a house drew from his experiences in the Atlantic no doubt. It was truly a wondrous place to grow, and had he lived past my 12th birthday i probably would have gone to sea myself.

Burying that hero was probably the saddest day of my life.

My second hero, my maternal grandfather was an infantryman under Patton's 3rd U.S. Army who came ashore in normandy and stayed with that posting until VE-Day.

He was a coal miner, and a steel mill worker in the backwoods of Eastern Kentucky before the war. He literally was born in - and did most of his growing up in an honest to goodness log cabin (the remains of the chimney still stand deep in the overgrown mountains of Appalachia).

As a hunter, he was a natural as a U.S. Army sharpshooter and according to many verbal accounts from friends and family he "could hit a running rabbit at 100 yards".

He Joined the Army on December 8th 1941 like most young men, and due to illness was removed from his training and his unit and reassigned to another unit when his health returned. His old Unit went to the Pacific theater, and his new unit went to England.

He never really speaks much about his experiences during world war two. However, while looking for some scratch paper in the drawer of an upstairs bedroom one day i located his Honorable Discharge papers which were Dated in 1945. According to the document, he had served in every major campaign which patton's 3rd army had been a part of, and had been awarded several medals. Though he told us his profession in the military was "truck driver" the document listed him as being a "sharp shooter".

i always remember his home being decorated with commemorative pieces related to the Eurpoean Theatre of Operations.

And he even has his uniform hanging in his closet, decorated fully as if it had just been worn yesterday.

For me... it is difficult to grow up with two such heroes and NOT have a deeper appreciation for the Atlantic and the European sections of WWII versus the Pacific.

though i am highly familiar with the Pacific engagements and many of the signifigant events of the PTO... im just so much more passionate about the ETO.

thanks for reading.

thats an excellent question and i never really thought about it until now.

~GR

Through High School and beyond?

I have always been interested in WWII.

In High School I Majored in History.
My main interest was, of course, WWII.
I knew more facts then the Teacher!

After High School I joined the 82nd AirBorne.
I needed the thrill and challange.
But always had books around on the Sub Services.
I even qualified to transfer to the Army Divers program!

I started with SH1
And LOVED it!!

I had to pass on SH2 ecause my real life and the system I had
could not run it.

I came late to SH3.
But it was all I could hope for after being away.
Until I got the Modding Bug.

Most of my older family members fought in the Pacific.
My Uncle fought in Korea.

I fought in Grenada and Panama.
And did missions else where.

But the Courage and Determenation of the U-Boat Crews,
and the area of Operations,
Are of the unmost interest to me.

[Chisum]

Well...

I was born in 1952 and like you, for me the WW2 is in Europe and even the West Europe.
In my country we never say "the war 1939-1945" but always "the war 1940-1945".
It's clear.
Invasion may 10, 1940, battle of Britain, occupation and resistance actions, and the major point the D Day, Sainte Mère Eglise and Omaha beach the glory of "AA" Airborne and my eternel gratitude for all of the poor guys who sleep today at Colleville-sur-mer.
And finally the battle of the bulges of course witch was 25 miles near my hometown.
That's my WW2 references.

The war in the Pacific would never attracted me, except for acts of bravery of Kamikazes.
About Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it disgusting me.

It makes that for me, SH3 is on a U-Boot and in the Atlantic not in a pink submarine in the Pacific.

[Sailor Steve]

I was born in 1950, and grew up in the shadow of the war. I was always interested in the machinery, but mostly the planes. Of course I saw movies that told me how America won the war single-handed, and how it was all in the Pacific, except of course for the B-17s bombing Germany.

The 1960s brought new movies like Sink The Bismarck, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain and others that showed me a wider view. It took years for me to find out the war didn't start on December 7, 1941.

1983 brought Das Boot and 1985 found me playing Silent Service on my Atari 520ST. It wasn't until 1998 that I got my first PC and discovered Silent Hunter. As I played that I found myself wishing I could do it in a u-boat. When SH2 came along I was both happy and disappointed, and then I found an old copy of Aces Of The Deep.

My real interest is in Early American History and some aspects of World War One, but my gaming is all about the submarines. I love the machinery for itself and will gladly play either side in subs or surface ships.

[headcase]

I was born in the VERY late 60's to an Infantryman and his wife. Growed up diggin' music and math. Didn't do worth a flip at much of anything except sax in junior high. Didn't know how to deal with the Navy Recruiter in HS so I missed out on that chance. Wanted to go to OSC and wind up Commandind a fast-attack. Wound up after a failed attempt or three at Music School in the Infantry my own self. Never gave up the horn. Seperated from the U.S. Army, and within 9 months wound up playing on Cruise ships. Got fired once came close a few more times in the ensuing 10 years.

While I was bugged out of Ship Gigs a drummer hooked me up with SHII. It was cool. But I was into Jane's Longbow at the time . I sucked at it maybe beyond sucked. SHIII came out I All but built a system around it.

[Chisum]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The 1960s brought new movies like Sink The Bismarck, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain and others that showed me a wider view. It took years for me to find out the war didn't start on December 7, 1941.

I hope you have watch this movie too:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049665/

[HuskerNlincoln]

First of all, let me say, what a great topic. It is interesting the motivations why we play this game.

I was born in 1962 to a captian in the US Army, 30 year man.
My earliest memories are of my home growing up on base while he was in Tialand during the Vietnam war.

He served in all three WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, as a demolitions expert.

He didn't speak of his experiences, at all, I have no reference as to his career. My mother has shared portions of their time in Germany after the war, but very little.

I have always been fascinated with the machinery of war, but as a kid growing up didnt care for history that much.

As I got into my 20s and 30s the ETO became almost an obsession, and will watch read, study everything I can get my hands on.

I wonder if its me trying to in some way share my fathers experiences and to know him better.

[sharkbit]

Born in 1964 in Denver, Colorado.
I've had an interest in WWII since I was probably 8 or so. I lean towards the European theater more but I have quite a few books on the PTO as well.
I have an interest in the land war, air, and sea war with probably a leaning toward the land war more than the others, although for the past 5 months, I've been totally immersed in the Battle of the Atlantic, thanks to SH3. I've bought a ton of books on the subject, much to the dismay of my wife.

My dad served in the Army Air Corps during WWII as a gunner aboard B-17's flying out of Bury St. Edmunds, England. Unfortuneately, he passed away when I was 7. I never had a chance to talk to him about his experiences.
My step-dad was a mechanic on B-17's in England during the war and my father-in-law served in the Navy in the Pacific on a Net Tender. (Glamorous-no, but he does have some cool stories.)

[XLjedi]

I was born in 1970 in the US and to me it's very simple...

War in the Atlantic = U-Boat
War in the Pacific = AC Carrier

It's probably just a natural tendency for a sub sim enthusiast to favor the theater in which the submarine was a more prominent strategic focus.

Another thing... There's not really a US equivalent to the German Type VII.
The US subs were all like the Type IX's. Wasn't really any good short to medium range sub in the US fleet.

There's a post at Uboat.net that I think sums up the differences between the Gato and VIIC very nicely.
http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?20,59236,59248


And purely from a gaming perspective...

I think if you like to exploit radar and gadgets, and prefer the stealthy single target ambush at distance. You'd probably prefer the US simulation.

If you're more of a "shoot-from-the-hip" type captain and like to get up close and personal with your targets then the German boats are going to be more fun.

I think it's more fun to play with a Gato in the Pacific than a Type IX in the Atlantic for instance. The real challenge, I think, is getting to the point where you enjoy both sims equally because you've learned to play to the advantages of each.

[Pisces]

I was born in 1976 in the Netherlands, so well after the events of both sides of the war. However, they still had noticable effects on my early life. The pacific more than the european.

My dad was born halve a year after the Dutch East-Indies surrendered to the Japanese invasion. Shortly thereafter he and his mother and older brother (and more distant relatives) were put into concentration camps by the Japs ('Tjihapit' Bandung and later prison facility 'Struiswijk' in Batavia/Jakarta). Before that my granddad was already at sea fighting the Japs in the Java Sea, where I understand he got shipwrecked. I don't know which ship he was on, just that it was a dutch navy vessel. I only know he later had to work at the Burma railroad (so must have been taken captive as POW at some point) but managed to escape there eventually. Then enlisted himself in the Chinese Army to fight the Japs there, as he couldn't return to Java yet. And eventually also was assigned with Australian forces until the war was over and he returned to Holland. It's mindblowing considering what this man must have gone through and still survive. My dad, grandmother and his brother where the first to be repatriated to Holland, skin and bones. My granddad was later joined with them again there, skin and bones aswell but held together with metal plates. They returned back to Jakarta not long after, but then had to endure the following years as Indonesia fought for their own independance from the Dutch. Pretty scarry events aswel for a small kid of 5-10 years old.

I am slowly getting the desire to do some research into war-records of what happend to my paternal granddad. Very much a mistery-man to me. I only know him as a man on a photo. And stories from my dad and uncle's are sketchy at best as they were only a kid, atleast in those early days. And grandma didn't want to talk about that time later on because of the pain it caused. Well, granddad too no doubt considering. Unfortuneatly I never got to know the man as he died a year before my parents maried and a couple more before I was born.

On the european side my maternal grandmother lived in Arnhem (as in 'Market Garden') and was a nurse. She never talked about her experiences either. My somewhat younger maternal granddad (they hadn't met yet) was old enough to be put to forced labour in Germany so he went into hiding. As the Netherlands was liberated from Germany and the Indonesian indepence war started he was sent there as enlisted soldier to keep order. I don't remember what he may have told about what he experienced there, but I remember seeing the pain in his eyes when he tried to talk about it. My mother was born after the war so she didn't have any direct experiences from it.

For me this didn't create a desire for me to take history classes or anything (.. yet anyway). There wasn't given much attention to the pacific events during my school years (as far as Dutch East-Indies were concerned) anyway. Mostly the focus was on the european theater, and holocaust events. Ofcourse Hiroshima and Nagasaki because of the A-bomb, maybe Pearl Harbor to proof it had become a 'world war', ... but the rest mostly ignored. I just tried to pay as much attention as I could when those old stories were talked about in my (dad's) family. Asking about those experiences was like walking a minefield. Never sure how they would react. And the last thing a kid wants is to make his parent(s) cry, so better not bring it up anyway. Besides, all my dad had was vague images and erratic feelings he couldn't handle so cropped up inside. (triggered by things like Gulfwar '91/violence on the news, and glorification of Japanese culture like that 'ninja'-hype late 80s) He couldn't explain what he felt even if he wanted to. And I know he did.

So my experience of the war(s) was more like a funny (not so funny!!!) unexplainable tension in the family. Ofwhich I never thought that it had any real effect on me, ... until recent years. Realising much of how I behaved as a child was based on my dad's emotions. And indirectly mom's too. Those were more important than what I felt or needed. So these are the things that run through the back of my mind whenever I watch a war-movie, play a wargame or subsim.

Getting SH1 was I guess my (feeble) way to deal with this herritage. Sinking digital Japs. (seeking revenge, yet abstaining from violence --> no harm done to your karma ) I wish I understood more of the navigation and tracking techniques at that time to really enjoy the 'payback'. All I did was mostly portraiding, never convoys. Pretty much skipped Sh2 and was a late Sh3-er because I didn't have a good pc. And also I felt weird placing myself in German shoes/raincoat. Only last year did I have a good gfx card to play Sh3. Ofcourse, I would rather play Sh4 and 'do it right' this time. But again my pc is not up to specs for that.

I'm sorry if this message sounds more like a therapy session than a discussion on education. I guess I needed to get that of my chest.

I was born in 1977 in a US Navy Hospital to two sailors. As much as I would like to glorify their "service" they were just two poor Americans with no options so they joined the military. For all you Europen and non American subsimers let me just say in America if you are not born into money you are screwed. Poor American's get a worthless high school diploma and we can join the military or pump gas. I did both actually. I joined the infantry on my 17th birthday thinking it was the proudest moment of my life. My last day in the service ended in South Carolina in a Navy brig. Let's just say I didn't fit in well with the "kindler gentler" army. I almost joined the French Foreign Legion, but then I decided I should grow a brain as it would be less painful.

My study about World War 2 history and other wars is the unpopular aspects. I study how America instigated Pearl Harbor as en excuse to enter world war 2, because at the time America wanted no part in it. Then there is of course the Lusitania. The gulf of Tonkin lie and many more. I study how America tested it's A-bombs on American troops to see what radiation did. I suggest you read up on the USS Liberty. Israel napalmed and torpedoed it to blame it on another middle eastern country to drag America into war in the middle east. Israel also at least allowed the Marine barracks to be blown up to drag us into a full blown war, they may have even helped the bad guys out. This stuff is important to study because it continues today. 9-11 anyone? I was a demo man in the army, I had to use a half pound of C4 just to blow up four strands of concertina wire, they want me to believe jet fuel caused sky scrapers to collapse? If history tells us anything, there is a lot more to things than the "official" version.

I also like to follow the money trails that start these wars. Hitler could not rise to power without the powerful banks behind him. What is shocking is to learn that Hitler had some powerful jewish bankers funding him. Ok, well you all get the drift. There is an old movie in America called the Wizard of Oz. There is a line in the end. "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Well, you better!

I play SH3 and SH4 because I like the chess like aspect of the fighting. It's the right amount of action and it requires brains as well. It's not as boring and slow as Steel Panthers nor is it a Arcade shoot em up.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Flamingboat

I was born in 1977 in a US Navy Hospital to two sailors. As much as I would like to glorify their "service" they were just two poor Americans with no options so they joined the military. For all you Europen and non American subsimers let me just say in America if you are not born into money you are screwed. Poor American's get a worthless high school diploma and we can join the military or pump gas. I did both actually. I joined the infantry on my 17th birthday thinking it was the proudest moment of my life. My last day in the service ended in South Carolina in a Navy brig. Let's just say I didn't fit in well with the "kindler gentler" army. I almost joined the French Foreign Legion, but then I decided I should grow a brain as it would be less painful.

Sounds like you've got issues beyond being born to "poor" Americans. I know of people who grew up in mobile homes, got by with C's in high school, put themselves thru basic college classes and now earn respectable salaries. You don't necessarily have to be rich or a genius to be successful in America. ...but there is something to be said for perseverence and common sense.

If anything, poor Americans are the least disadvantaged class of poor in the world. ...and to many foreign countries poor Americans are anything but poor.

Originally Posted by aaronblood

If anything, poor Americans are the least disadvantaged class of poor in the world. ...and to many foreign countries poor Americans are anything but poor.

So what you are really trying to say is "there are starving people in China!" ha ha. I know poor American's don't have it as bad as say a poor Peruvian or Burmese, but go tell that to the kid in a one traffic light town working at McDonald's in Nowhereville West Virginia. His country only needs him when they need to have someone do the dieing in a war. After that it's back to the fry cooker. Go look at the state of the VA hospitals even as I write this. After the war machine is "finished" with you, you're on your own.

As for having issues, well my mom and many ex's would agree, however that doesn't go very far in defending the lack of any real opportunity in America. My story ends well, I'm married to money, but if it wasn't for that I would be mopping a cargo ship loaded with rubber dog **** out of Hong Kong.

Originally Posted by Pisces

I am slowly getting the desire to do some research into war-records of what happend to my paternal granddad. Very much a mistery-man to me. I only know him as a man on a photo.

Daddy's flown across the ocean
Leaving just a memory
Snapshot in the family album
Daddy what else did you leave for me?
Daddy, what'd'ja leave behind for me?!?
All in all it was just a brick in the wall.
All in all it was all just bricks in the wall.

Pink Floyd lyrics, "Another Brick in the Wall"