Russia to withdraw from NATO-Russia council completely.

Originally Posted by baggygreen

Here is possibly the most interesting quote of this thread...

Majority of Russia's population is in the west, the east is fairly sparse. Majority of China's population is to the east, right next to sparsely populated eastern russia.

Wholly and solely at a guess, China will be more than happy to buy from Russia until Russia makes drilling and mining there economically viable.

As soon as that happens, the world will see a funny case of deja vu, but it will be the russians crying foul, and the chinese annexing territory.

Doesn't that thought just remind you of Tom Clancy , ever read "The Bear and the Dragon" - some of the stuff that going on seems like it been pulled straight from one of his books

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by darius359au

Doesn't that thought just remind you of Tom Clancy , ever read "The Bear and the Dragon" - some of the stuff that going on seems like it been pulled straight from one of his books

What Darius said. I knew I had read that somewhere before. =)

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by baggygreen

Here is possibly the most interesting quote of this thread...

Majority of Russia's population is in the west, the east is fairly sparse. Majority of China's population is to the east, right next to sparsely populated eastern russia.

Wholly and solely at a guess, China will be more than happy to buy from Russia until Russia makes drilling and mining there economically viable.

As soon as that happens, the world will see a funny case of deja vu, but it will be the russians crying foul, and the chinese annexing territory.

Thats why it would be better that Russian would concentrate on the Chinese border instead of the NATO one. The other is a real threat, the other is paranoia.
Better yet, reform Russia economically and culturally to become a thriving part of the West, an ally equal to US.
Pitty such a visionary person hasnt emerged and Russia will most likely see another revolution and possibly reduced to even smaller pieces.

[August]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Better yet, reform Russia economically and culturally to become a thriving part of the West, an ally equal to US.

When the Soviet Union fell there were many of us here in the states that held that hope. It's a pity they seem to be degenerating back into the "evil empire" they used to be.

[1480]

A. Putin is former cold war era "spook", who was not only investigated once, BUT twice for "white collar crimes" (treason back in the ole USSR days). Germany could not or would not produce an indictment for the second incident.

B. You have the "generation text" that believes everything that the media tells them.

C. We all need a boogeyman, to "sleep safe at night".

[baggygreen]

So its not an original thought then... bugger.

At least its a logical one...

At least I'm not coming out of left field then.. slightly reassuring!

Russias problem is its too paranoid by the west, rather than acknowledging the changing globe and realigning itself to defend the new therat to the east. Thats a historical paranoia, and one that has been built on several times - napoleon, anyone? Adolf?

Until Russia begins thinking more strategically than they are currently (weapons trad and alliance-building with India is a good start - India and China are two growing rivals), they're going to find themselves in more and more of a bind.

However. To look at it from Russia's perspective, they're feeling more and more hemmed in by the NATO alliance (whose expansion can only be considered anti-Russian in the post Cold War era) and by the Chinese in the east. Russia has never fought NATO except through proxy, however they have fought the Chinese. Perhaps, just perhaps, in their eyes the actino in georgia was to try and secure themselves a little buffer. Perhaps they thought it would warn NATO to stop advancing eastwards, or perhaps they somehow thought NATO would look differently on the situation.

Their pulling out of the Council might reflect an opinion of bugger you lot, we've had it trying to play nice, we're taking our toys and going home. I'm sure that if lil old me can see a threat from the East, and if Tom Clancy can see it, then someone up high in Russia can see it too.

I'll even go so far as to voice an opinion that possibly Russia's ploy had been a completely miscalculated attempt to attract more western support. i wouldn't bet the house on it, but it might be a possibility..

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by baggygreen

So its not an original thought then... bugger.

At least its a logical one...

At least I'm not coming out of left field then.. slightly reassuring!

Russias problem is its too paranoid by the west, rather than acknowledging the changing globe and realigning itself to defend the new therat to the east. Thats a historical paranoia, and one that has been built on several times - napoleon, anyone? Adolf?

Until Russia begins thinking more strategically than they are currently (weapons trad and alliance-building with India is a good start - India and China are two growing rivals), they're going to find themselves in more and more of a bind.

However. To look at it from Russia's perspective, they're feeling more and more hemmed in by the NATO alliance (whose expansion can only be considered anti-Russian in the post Cold War era) and by the Chinese in the east. Russia has never fought NATO except through proxy, however they have fought the Chinese. Perhaps, just perhaps, in their eyes the actino in georgia was to try and secure themselves a little buffer. Perhaps they thought it would warn NATO to stop advancing eastwards, or perhaps they somehow thought NATO would look differently on the situation.

Their pulling out of the Council might reflect an opinion of bugger you lot, we've had it trying to play nice, we're taking our toys and going home. I'm sure that if lil old me can see a threat from the East, and if Tom Clancy can see it, then someone up high in Russia can see it too.

I'll even go so far as to voice an opinion that possibly Russia's ploy had been a completely miscalculated attempt to attract more western support. i wouldn't bet the house on it, but it might be a possibility..

The persons in power in Russia dont have the interest of Russian nation or people in mind, thats just what they want people to belive. Most are gangsters that rob the wealth of their nation and people to send it to Switzerland. Their ideology and foreign policy represents past times and is a threat to the world.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Currently, russian investements are buying off Western corporation shares like crazy, with incredible sums of money. Only the Gulf states and china surpass them. They seem to follow the same tactic like the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia: biting off a big enough share of western industry to have a word in its control and in the future, when they run thin on oil and gas (we are talking 20, 30 years btw), they will shave off the cream from industrial profits they make with ex-western companies that are not so exclusively western-owned, then. Then WE will work for THEM, and for the Arabs. Serves us right, stupidly bragging as we do.

So let's see who will grin wider in the end. I don't bet my money on the West. We need them more than they need us - and that is a bad start to begin a match with.

The interesting thing is, ultimately, we don't really need them for crap. Other than to behave themselves that is. Towards the end of the Cold War, it was heartily apparent who needed who more...ya think. The dynamics have only changed to decrease their influence and absolute military power in total. Now you Euros certainly have a problem though. But as I explained earlier, Russia cannot afford to really screw you guys over, and you guys can realign your energy sector all the same if push comes to shove. Not just in alternatives either. But it will cost you. In the end, I believe you guys will do what's right. Even if there are folks who think like you in Europe. BTW, Chinese debt ownership only approaches 6% of our debt. Russian investments in Western ventures doesn't even bring up a total of 1% yet. What you say here is the same horsepucky I heard throughout the 80's, but only Japan would be our Masters. Japoan is still buying, yet they ain't exactly our masters. What you "Chalmers Johnson" guys who chalk this stuff up fail to take into account are things like ventures that merge, grow, go under, and a continually expanding economy in terms of GDP and total capital investment expenditures. It's constantly shifting and not static like you believe it to be. Russia can continue to throw their money our way if they please, but it ain't gonna turn into the Master and Slave relationship that you envision for us any time soon. :p Foreign investment is good for us as well...as long as it's not against the interests of National Security. Russia will not control Raytheon or Lockheed my friend. Sky, try not to believe every tragic book and internet article written for the fatalist.

[Frame57]

True! Also much of what Japan bought they sold back at a loss.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Sky, try not to believe every tragic book and internet article written for the fatalist.

He only believes what fits his preconceived notions. To him America is wholly owned by the Chinese or Arabs, the US govt can do nothing right and we should take whatever he says as gospel because Spiegle and the NYT are totally unbiased.

[XabbaRus]

You think Russia doesn't have an eye on China? They are fully aware of what China would like and has its eye so much so that some of its better units are in the Siberian military district. I'm doing a search now for which ones but they are there. Russia hasn't forgotten China's threat, even starting to make moves against Chinese IP theft.

I like good open discussion on this topic but seeing throwaway reactionary comments does dismay me when a few here have posted though out comments concerning the situation.

Sure Russia is acting aggresively towards the west at the moment but I can see where they are coming from. At the same time I can see why western nations would like Russia to calm down some, but it doesn't help when both sides are throwing around comments like kindling. It seems that some western leaders haven't taken the time to understand WHY Russia reacts the way it does. I'm not saying that is an excuse for all their behaviour but it could help in treating Russia as an equal partner like they profess they want to. You might answer that Russia doesn't deserve to be going on some past actions but Russia hasn't really been given the chance. She has, since the collapse of the USSR been talked down to and condescendingly.

Seeing comments such as "russians are only like this, and only good for that, and can only behave this way..." aren't exactly great for a good debate and are upsetting. americans here you don't like it when someone comes here and starts writing how bad Americans and America are, that they can only behave in one way, can't think for themselves etc as has been witnessed here. You don't like it and fair enough.

Some might acuse me of being a Russophile to the extreme but I disagree, I just don't swallow the first headlines I read, from either side. I like to try and get a balanced view as is possible.

[baggygreen]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

You think Russia doesn't have an eye on China? They are fully aware of what China would like and has its eye so much so that some of its better units are in the Siberian military district. I'm doing a search now for which ones but they are there. Russia hasn't forgotten China's threat, even starting to make moves against Chinese IP theft.

I like good open discussion on this topic but seeing throwaway reactionary comments does dismay me when a few here have posted though out comments concerning the situation.

Sure Russia is acting aggresively towards the west at the moment but I can see where they are coming from. At the same time I can see why western nations would like Russia to calm down some, but it doesn't help when both sides are throwing around comments like kindling. It seems that some western leaders haven't taken the time to understand WHY Russia reacts the way it does. I'm not saying that is an excuse for all their behaviour but it could help in treating Russia as an equal partner like they profess they want to. You might answer that Russia doesn't deserve to be going on some past actions but Russia hasn't really been given the chance. She has, since the collapse of the USSR been talked down to and condescendingly.

Seeing comments such as "russians are only like this, and only good for that, and can only behave this way..." aren't exactly great for a good debate and are upsetting. americans here you don't like it when someone comes here and starts writing how bad Americans and America are, that they can only behave in one way, can't think for themselves etc as has been witnessed here. You don't like it and fair enough.

Some might acuse me of being a Russophile to the extreme but I disagree, I just don't swallow the first headlines I read, from either side. I like to try and get a balanced view as is possible.

im confused - was this for me? cos i thought i wasn't overly anti-russian..

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

You might answer that Russia doesn't deserve to be going on some past actions but Russia hasn't really been given the chance. She has, since the collapse of the USSR been talked down to and condescendingly.

IMHO, they talk down to the Soviets too, whenever they can. I think Russia-bashing is almost pathologically in the mindset of all too many Westerners (no, and I don't mean Finns or Poles or Balts). You can just see the disease when you read through many articles.

Some might acuse me of being a Russophile to the extreme but I disagree, I just don't swallow the first headlines I read, from either side. I like to try and get a balanced view as is possible.

The average position generated by the Western media is such that attempting to take a relatively neutral position will already look Russophile.