Dutch memorial getting build for German Wehrmacht hero

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Dan D

@Fish
We would have given the bikes back, that we once have stolen.
But we can't find the keys (for the bike lock).
Sorry.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Dowly

And refusing would very well mean an execution of you and possibly your family.
Not much of a choice is there?

Didn't stop White Rose.

Fight for your country that is lead by a fricking lunatic or die.

And who put said lunatic in power in the first place? And then mindlessly supported every decision he made until the war turned obviously grim? Even Germany admits to the mistakes it made during World War 2. So why defend what they won't even touch themselves?

Dont know how many of you have read books about Wermacht fighting in the Russian front. They didnt give a flying frick about Hitler,

Except for the part where they still invaded on his orders. If they didn't give a hell, why DID they participate in the invasion so willingly?

nor the Germany after a year or so there. They fought to survive, surrender wasnt an option, Russians were savages to them.

And none of this would have needed to happen had they not supported Hitler anyway. How ironic.

And I cant blame them, a book I read awhile back ( I think it was the Forgotten Soldier, not sure), said how they came to an bunker, where 2 German soldiers had been killed by the Russians, the other had his face literately split in two with an axe and his gold tooth had been taken off.

War is hell. Maybe next time, Germany shouldn't start it.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Didn't stop White Rose.

And who put said lunatic in power in the first place? And then mindlessly supported every decision he made until the war turned obviously grim? Even Germany admits to the mistakes it made during World War 2. So why defend what they won't even touch themselves?

Except for the part where they still invaded on his orders. If they didn't give a hell, why DID they participate in the invasion so willingly?

And none of this would have needed to happen had they not supported Hitler anyway. How ironic.

War is hell. Maybe next time, Germany shouldn't start it.

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Didn't stop White Rose.

And who put said lunatic in power in the first place? And then mindlessly supported every decision he made until the war turned obviously grim? Even Germany admits to the mistakes it made during World War 2. So why defend what they won't even touch themselves?

Except for the part where they still invaded on his orders. If they didn't give a hell, why DID they participate in the invasion so willingly?

And none of this would have needed to happen had they not supported Hitler anyway. How ironic.

War is hell. Maybe next time, Germany shouldn't start it.

Please, some of the indicated generalisations are - simply unjustified.

Some germans were active, convinced Nazi supporters. Most were not - but were born in the wrong place and the wrong time - and this was true for most of the Wehrmacht soldiers. That the officer corps was living by the old Prussian ideals of loyalty, serving, being precise and efficient, and not questioning orders, did not help, of course. But it is the same ideals that you see in all Western armies today, sold to the public in pictures and slogans like service in the army today it sold in recruiting videos of the US forces. Nobody blow up, please - but if you compare the style and picture language of such videos, and propaganda art by the Nazis, you will easily see striking similarities. Many US boys today join the forces for comparable reasons why young Germans back then joined the Hitler youth or the army - and liked it. And their parents, having experienced WWI, probably were not as enthusiastic, in most cases. Also, Hitler was said to have been able to be very charming with women, and very convincing and blending with high ranking generals, whom often visited him with critical news - and left him with conviction on their face, and lightened spirit again. the man was a perfect blender, like there have been other blenders later, and before, and even today in the present. Some of the leaders today are capable of exactly the same. and as we know - they are successful.

If somebody believes hitler was only possible in Germany, then he is making a most dangerous mistake. Most western people allowed themselves to get blinded on this and that issue. Many even re-elect the leaders that blind them. In case of Hitler, the historic constellation was just especially explosive, and fertile for the ideology of darkness the Nazi had on their mind - and thought about as being an ideology of light and a vision of a bright future. Carefull guys! don't spend your trust, your loyalty and your service so easily and uncritically.

Not everybody has what it takes to sacrifice himself, like the Scholls did. Get this video
http://www.amazon.com/Sophie-Scholl-...9895805&sr=8-2
and then ask yourself wether you would have the selfdenying greatness of hers, too, if being in her place.

And to see it from young people's perspective, and why children fell for the Nazis uncritically: http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Die-Bru...9896609&sr=8-1

These two are amongst the best film about that era I know of. Ironically, both of them are German. but maybe that isn't any ironic at all - nobody knows all that stuff better than today's Germans' parents and grandparents.

Or take the brother of my grandfather - the reason why I take your offhanded comments a bit queer. Both of them were officers the Wehrmacht. My grandfather indicated that he was shot after having refused to participate in one of those "cleaning" operations behind the front usual special units of the SS carried out. they did not want to let it become known, he said, what was happening. Such units for the most were made up of loyal Nazi-soldiers, like were KZ-guards.

If you know so well how Hitler came to power, then you know that the opinion of the majority of the German people was not really a factor - most did not like the Nazis, but saw little strength and courage to stand up against them - and that would not be any different today, with any people in the world. Hitler had sympathizers both in Austria and in Germany, but it can be doubted that they were a majority. Most people probably just thought about how to protect their families and not getting into conflict with the secret police. - Beyond that, it must be said that initially the Nazis created jobs after a long economic crisis that left many families in despair. It was temtping to tolerate the Nazis when suddenly you have bread and butter on your table again and somebody gives you a vision for a bright future after the years of the treaty of Versaille.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Please, some of the indicated generalisations are - simply unjustified.

And these ones aren't. Based on the simple fact that, gasp, Hitler and the Nazis got into power in the first place.

Some germans were active, convinced Nazi supporters. Most were not - but were born in the wrong place and the wrong time - and this was true for most of the Wehrmacht soldiers.

Who had absolutely zero qualms about invading one foriegn country after another. Even holding onto them after it was clear the Allies weren't going to take it. Sure, they weren't supporting the Nazis. They were only following their orders.

That the officer corps was living by the old Prussian ideals of loyalty, serving, being precise and efficient, and not questioning orders, did not help, of course. But it is the same ideals that you see in all Western armies today, sold to the public in pictures and slogans like service in the army today it sold in recruiting videos of the US forces.

That's because the US has become very militaristic over the past 60 years to the point where the American public has a massive persecution complex over its soldiers and immiedietly starts foaming at the mouth whenever someone decides to criticize their holy army or something. Germany was a lot like that before it decided to go on a rampage.

Nobody blow up, please - but if you compare the style and picture language of such videos, and propaganda art by the Nazis, you will easily see striking similarities.

You will. Scary huh?

Many US boys today join the forces for comparable reasons why young Germans back then joined the Hitler youth or the army - and liked it. And their parents, having experienced WWI, probably were not as enthusiastic, in most cases.

This is a red herring.

Also, Hitler was said to have been able to be very charming with women, and very convincing and blending with high ranking generals, whom often visited him with critical news - and left him with conviction on their face, and lightened spirit again.

Because he was Germany's public face. No one was leaving his office with a happy look on their face post 1940.

And to see it from young people's perspective, and why children fell for the Nazis uncritically: http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Die-Bru...9896609&sr=8-1

And why their parents did absolutely nothing to resist after it was apparent the Nazis were raping their children with racial nonsense.

Or take the brother of my grandfather - the reason why I take your offhanded comments a bit queer. Both of them were officers the Wehrmacht. My grandfather indicated that he was shot after having refused to participate in one of those "cleaning" operations behind the front usual special units of the SS carried out. they did not want to let it become known, he said, what was happening. Such units for the most were made up of loyal Nazi-soldiers, like were KZ-guards.

A nice anecdote. Too bad more Wehrmacht soldiers weren't like him. Otherwise the war might not have happened in the first place.

If you know so well how Hitler came to power, then you know that the opinion of the majority of the German people was not really a factor - most did not like the Nazis, but saw little strength and courage to stand up against them - and that would not be any different today, with any people in the world.

Nonsense. The Nazis started as a bar club. They only rose and won as many seats as they did because they got popular public support.

Hitler had sympathizers both in Austria and in Germany, but it can be doubted that they were a majority.

They were mostly unemployed workers aggravated by conditions brought on by the Depression.

Most people probably just thought about how to protect their families and not getting into conflict with the secret police. - Beyond that, it must be said that initially the Nazis created jobs after a long economic crisis that left many families in despair. It was temtping to tolerate the Nazis when suddenly you have bread and butter on your table again and somebody gives you a vision for a bright future after the years of the treaty of Versaille.

One of the great myths of history is that the Nazis helped Germany's infrastructure and improved its economic living standards. All of the improvements brought on by the Nazis were hollow and supported only by them inflating the Reichsmark. In other words, if it wasn't for the war, Germany would have been dead broke and bankrupt again by 1940. Too bad declaring war on the powers around it will only doom Germany into fighting a war it can't possibly win. Thus is the bane of the Depression, by trying to get out of it quickly and painlessly, Germany ended up enduring more pain and what's more, spread it to everyone around it. How lovely.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

If we go down this road you will have to start to look in the mirror also.

Uhhh, ok. I hear making vague statements about my moral stance refutes my argument now?

[Dowly]

Uh oh.. Neal just got up with a huge hangover, watch your words, I see him wandering around, waiting to lock something to make him feel better.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Uhhh, ok. I hear making vague statements about my moral stance refutes my argument now?

The Western allies did nothing when Hitler started to rise in power.
They did nothing when he annexed Austria and rolled in to Czechoslovakia.
and made deals with him.
They declared war only after he attacked Poland but didnt actually fight him, USA didnt even do this.
They didnt declare war on USSR when Stalin also attacked Poland.
They didnt declare war when Stalin occupied Baltic states and attacked Finland.
They allied themself with Stalin from -41, made deals and armed him, USA finally declared war to Germany after Hitler had done it first.
They let Germany and USSR beat each other to pulp in the East before joining the fight in Europe while millions of people died.
They liberated half of Europe from Nazi terror but left the other half under Bolsevik terror.

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
From Central and Eastern European perspective too much moralisation from these countries that suffered considerably less from the war is annoying.
USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

The Western allies did nothing when Hitler started to rise in power.
They did nothing when he annexed Austria and rolled in to Czechoslovakia.
and made deals with him.
They declared war only after he attacked Poland but didnt actually fight him, USA didnt even do this.
They didnt declare war on USSR when Stalin also attacked Poland.
They didnt declare war when Stalin occupied Baltic states and attacked Finland.
They allied themself with Stalin from -41, made deals and armed him, USA finally declared war to Germany after Hitler had done it first.
They let Germany and USSR beat each other to pulp in the East before joining the fight in Europe while millions of people died.
They liberated half of Europe from Nazi terror but left the other half under Bolsevik terror.

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
From Central and Eastern European perspective too much moralisation from these countries that suffered considerably less from the war is annoying.
USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.

That pretty much sums it up.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

The Western allies did nothing when Hitler started to rise in power.
They did nothing when he annexed Austria and rolled in to Czechoslovakia.
and made deals with him.
They declared war only after he attacked Poland but didnt actually fight him, USA didnt even do this.
They didnt declare war on USSR when Stalin also attacked Poland.
They didnt declare war when Stalin occupied Baltic states and attacked Finland.
They allied themself with Stalin from -41, made deals and armed him, USA finally declared war to Germany after Hitler had done it first.
They let Germany and USSR beat each other to pulp in the East before joining the fight in Europe while millions of people died.
They liberated half of Europe from Nazi terror but left the other half under Bolsevik terror.

Dude, if you make a list of complaints about the allies during World War 2, trust me, i'll HELP you write it. My problem isn't this, it's the blatent Axis apologism here.

This all leads one to think that they didnt try to do what was morally right but what was in their nations interest at a given time.
From Central and Eastern European perspective too much moralisation from these countries that suffered considerably less from the war is annoying.
USA practically sit aside for almost three years, lended money, made tanks/planes, and dropped a nuke.

To say the US was insignifigant during the war is totally false. They contributed more than 70% of the allies overall industrial output and didn't even use their full strength during the war. Post 1945 they were producing more than 50% of the world's GDP. I've got no love for Joe Redneck chest pounding American nationalists either, but to act like America's contribution to the war effort was minimal is just lunacy. It was the deciding factor.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Dude, if you make a list of complaints about the allies during World War 2, trust me, i'll HELP you write it. My problem isn't this, it's the blatent Axis apologism here.

To say the US was insignifigant during the war is totally false. They contributed more than 70% of the allies overall industrial output and didn't even use their full strength during the war. Post 1945 they were producing more than 50% of the world's GDP. I've got no love for Joe Redneck chest pounding American nationalists either, but to act like America's contribution to the war effort was minimal is just lunacy. It was the deciding factor.

You said it.
Im not denying the economic importance, it was the deciding factor.

[Skybird]

CaptHawkeye, I bow to your fundamental knowledge and deep insight. Germany really owes you.

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by Skybird

CaptHawkeye, I bow to your fundamental knowledge and deep insight. Germany really owes you.

Okay have we heard from Italy and Japan yet?

[Fish]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Does that mean they were gay?

No, ****heads.
Only before and during the match.
Have to remember we are a just very small country measured to our neighbours.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Dan D

@Fish
We would have given the bikes back, that we once have stolen.
But we can't find the keys (for the bike lock).
Sorry.

Right, I want my dads bike back.