REL: Small moon mod + discussion: Moon size - big or small? - Page 3

tater · 04-16-08, 04:58 PM

There is refraction, 35 minutes of arc. It is pretty much equal though, so this simply delays sunset by ~1 diameter.

I said SHOULD because it should in the sim (but doesn't)

Not because I think it should in RL.

thasaint · 04-16-08, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrBeast

Quote:

Originally Posted by thasaint

i like the moon and sun smaller

on a side note, can anyone help me with this problem?
after noticing this i upgraded to the latest drivers and it didn't help. i have TMO, RSRD, and PE, but it happens no matter what mods i have installed:
Radeon HD 2600 PRO

That's a stock scene.dat issue, if memory serves. Happened with the ATi 2xxx series. Should have been eliminated in the scene.dat PE uses :hmm:

PE didn't fix it, neither did any other environmental mod...

any way you can tell me what i need to do to fix this? mebbe i'll just make my own thread

DeepIron · 04-16-08, 09:30 PM

Quote:

any way you can tell me what i need to do to fix this? mebbe i'll just make my own thread

Good idea... That way this thread can stay on topic...

ATR-42 · 04-17-08, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundman

when i look at a picture like this, the sun is huge, it looks just like the one in PE2. so what gives? is its size as viewed based on latitude? season?

Carotio · 04-17-08, 07:06 AM

I think it's the same as for the moon. Once they're close to the horisont they appear larger than when they're high up in the sky.

Anyway, as I see the poll so far, it seems that a single seperate download would seem the most popular, so I'll pack it later and release it...

Carotio · 04-17-08, 08:37 AM

Message no longer appliable...

DeepIron · 04-17-08, 08:40 AM

The "apparent" increase in the size of the moon and sun near the horizon is caused by and atmospheric "lensing" effect. It makes them look "bigger" than they actually are. I think this would be hard to simulate in the SH4 engine...

tater · 04-17-08, 08:56 AM

With all due respect, deepiron, that is not true. There is no lensing effect that makes them bigger. As measured, they simply do not appreciably increase or decrease in size at the horizon. Any "lensing" would none the less be measurable... caliper the moon or sun, and compare to zenith. This is entirely psychological. It is because when the sun or moon is at the horizon you can compare it to the objects also on the horizon. In the case of the sun, you can actually look right at it, which in itself is an issue since you really cannot dwell on the size at zenith.

The refraction that does occur bends the path of the light such that the sun/moon appear above the horizon longer, and the setting is actually a couple minutes after they are under the horizon. It doesn't grossly change the geometry. At low altitudes in particular, you can see some distortion, but the size is largely unchanged (perhaps measurable, but were talking arc seconds here, not, "wow, that's HUGE!"). The distortion is actually a flattening in the vertical due to the atmosphere acting as a prism. So in one dimension it is actually smaller, not larger.

ATR, that image looks big because it's taken with a telephoto lens (or cropped), no more.

The sun and moon are not bigger at the horizon, period.

In fact, they are farther away at sun/moon rise or set by one earth radius.

tater

kriller2 · 04-17-08, 09:04 AM

I think it's a question of how do you see the sun when looking at sunsets? and most people would say it seems bigger incuding me, so that's what I am aiming for in PE 2.1 , are the sun on this picure to big ? (It's resized to 1/3 of PE2 and 1/2 of stock SH4)

DeepIron · 04-17-08, 09:12 AM

Absolutely true.... I stand corrected... I was mistakenly thinking of the "mirage" effect http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weathe...ts/supmrge.htm which I've seen numerous times in Alaska, especially in very cold winters, and mostly across large bodies of water. It both shifts and increases the apparent size of the observed object...

tater · 04-17-08, 09:15 AM

http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/index.html

Lengthy description of the moon illusion.

tater · 04-17-08, 09:18 AM

^actually, this is pretty fascinating stuff.

I'm probably more touchy on this subject than most since I studied astrophysics in college.

I recognize the illusion, though, like everyone else I have it as well. The difference is that after conversations like these I hold my finger up to dispel it

DeepIron · 04-17-08, 09:23 AM

Quote:

I'm probably more touchy on this subject than most since I studied astrophysics in college.

Glad you caught my error!

Sent you a PM...

Carotio · 05-07-08, 09:03 AM

Sorry to bump my thread, but I just looked in my BtS section, and it seems that very few have looked at my moon mod there. A little strange since the poll showed some interest for a small moon mod.

EDIT:
my BtS identity gone...

DeepIron · 05-07-08, 09:08 AM

Maybe it's the registration part... Most mods are up on Filefront or similar...

View Poll Results: What do you want?
Small moon, no thanks	10	20.41%
Small moon, part of PE2	22	44.90%
Small moon, just as seperate small mod	19	38.78%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

04-17-08, 07:06 AM	#35
Carotio Mr. Bad Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aabenraa, Denmark Posts: 1,488 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	I think it's the same as for the moon. Once they're close to the horisont they appear larger than when they're high up in the sky. Anyway, as I see the poll so far, it seems that a single seperate download would seem the most popular, so I'll pack it later and release it... __________________ Download my mods from SHMF Follow my photography here taler dansk, speak English, spreche Deutsch, parle français, forstår svenska/norsk, comprendo castellano

04-17-08, 08:37 AM	#36
Carotio Mr. Bad Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aabenraa, Denmark Posts: 1,488 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	Message no longer appliable... __________________ Download my mods from SHMF Follow my photography here taler dansk, speak English, spreche Deutsch, parle français, forstår svenska/norsk, comprendo castellano Last edited by Carotio; 01-07-09 at 09:02 AM.

04-17-08, 08:40 AM	#37
DeepIron Sea Lord Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Too far from the Pacific right now... Posts: 1,634 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The "apparent" increase in the size of the moon and sun near the horizon is caused by and atmospheric "lensing" effect. It makes them look "bigger" than they actually are. I think this would be hard to simulate in the SH4 engine... __________________ RFB / RSRDC Beta Tester RFB / RSRDC Modding Forum: http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php RFB Top Post link: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125529 RFB Loadout: RFB_V1.52_102408: RFB_V1.52_Patch_111608: RSRDC_RFBv15_V396

04-17-08, 09:04 AM	#39
kriller2 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,227 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I think it's a question of how do you see the sun when looking at sunsets? and most people would say it seems bigger incuding me, so that's what I am aiming for in PE 2.1 , are the sun on this picure to big ? (It's resized to 1/3 of PE2 and 1/2 of stock SH4) __________________ *Kriller2.* [MODs] Real Environment mod and Pacific Enviroments 4 mod Last edited by kriller2; 04-17-08 at 09:16 AM.

04-16-08, 04:58 PM	#31
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	There is refraction, 35 minutes of arc. It is pretty much equal though, so this simply delays sunset by ~1 diameter. I said SHOULD because it should in the sim (but doesn't) Not because I think it should in RL.

04-17-08, 08:56 AM	#38
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	With all due respect, deepiron, that is not true. There is no lensing effect that makes them bigger. As measured, they simply do not appreciably increase or decrease in size at the horizon. Any "lensing" would none the less be measurable... caliper the moon or sun, and compare to zenith. This is entirely psychological. It is because when the sun or moon is at the horizon you can compare it to the objects also on the horizon. In the case of the sun, you can actually look right at it, which in itself is an issue since you really cannot dwell on the size at zenith. The refraction that does occur bends the path of the light such that the sun/moon appear above the horizon longer, and the setting is actually a couple minutes after they are under the horizon. It doesn't grossly change the geometry. At low altitudes in particular, you can see some distortion, but the size is largely unchanged (perhaps measurable, but were talking arc seconds here, not, "wow, that's HUGE!"). The distortion is actually a flattening in the vertical due to the atmosphere acting as a prism. So in one dimension it is actually smaller, not larger. ATR, that image looks big because it's taken with a telephoto lens (or cropped), no more. The sun and moon are not bigger at the horizon, period. In fact, they are farther away at sun/moon rise or set by one earth radius. tater

04-17-08, 09:12 AM	#40
DeepIron Sea Lord Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Too far from the Pacific right now... Posts: 1,634 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Absolutely true.... I stand corrected... I was mistakenly thinking of the "mirage" effect http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weathe...ts/supmrge.htm which I've seen numerous times in Alaska, especially in very cold winters, and mostly across large bodies of water. It both shifts and increases the apparent size of the observed object... __________________ RFB / RSRDC Beta Tester RFB / RSRDC Modding Forum: http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php RFB Top Post link: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125529 RFB Loadout: RFB_V1.52_102408: RFB_V1.52_Patch_111608: RSRDC_RFBv15_V396

04-17-08, 09:15 AM	#41
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/index.html Lengthy description of the moon illusion.

04-17-08, 09:18 AM	#42
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	^actually, this is pretty fascinating stuff. I'm probably more touchy on this subject than most since I studied astrophysics in college. I recognize the illusion, though, like everyone else I have it as well. The difference is that after conversations like these I hold my finger up to dispel it

05-07-08, 09:03 AM	#44
Carotio Mr. Bad Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aabenraa, Denmark Posts: 1,488 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	Sorry to bump my thread, but I just looked in my BtS section, and it seems that very few have looked at my moon mod there. A little strange since the poll showed some interest for a small moon mod. EDIT: my BtS identity gone... __________________ Download my mods from SHMF Follow my photography here taler dansk, speak English, spreche Deutsch, parle français, forstår svenska/norsk, comprendo castellano Last edited by Carotio; 01-07-09 at 09:00 AM.

05-07-08, 09:08 AM	#45
DeepIron Sea Lord Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Too far from the Pacific right now... Posts: 1,634 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Maybe it's the registration part... Most mods are up on Filefront or similar... __________________ RFB / RSRDC Beta Tester RFB / RSRDC Modding Forum: http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php RFB Top Post link: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125529 RFB Loadout: RFB_V1.52_102408: RFB_V1.52_Patch_111608: RSRDC_RFBv15_V396