New Olympic sport - Bashing Beijing!

[peterloo]

[quote=peterloo]I found myself in quite an embarassing position these days.

Despite the fact that I'm going against what the Chinese government does these days, I feel that some of the people out there are acting against Chinese collectively, which, of course, sadden me

Yes. If the flame went off in front of the whole world, that would make my day.

If I were a foreigner, I would definitely avocate putting out the flame with a fire extinguisher, in the same burtal way as how the government officials treat some of the protesters or so called "counter-revolutionists"

Yet, if I draw this parallel to an incident happened in the past, I would have different points of view.

The torch ceremony is seen by some as controversal. During one incident in the 1956 Summer Games in Melbourne, nine Australian students, most notably Barry Larkin, staged a hoax during the relay when the torch entered Sydney. The students wanted to protest against what they saw as "Too much reverence," to the flame, considering the Nazi origins. Larkin pretended to be an Olympic athlete, carring a fake torch made out of a burning pair of underpants and a plum pudding can on the end of a chair leg. He presented it to the mayor of Sydney, Pat Mills, and escaped before anyone realised he was an imposter.[8]

How would you feel if you were a German or the Sydney mayor, how would you feel if someone pulled out such a trick on you and embarass you in front of the public?

Although Olympic is always promoted as "Politics free", some elements or traces of politics can be found in it. The full support of Olympic by the British leaders is clearly a classical example.

The chinese paid millions and millions to get their propaganda show - so I think they deserve to get something for their money.

If you were IOC, you would definite BAR the country from hosting the event unless they had invested a large sum of money to make you happy, wouldn't you?
Undoubtedly, all politics are around of the main issue ~ benefit. If there is benefit, everything is OK. If not, vice versa.


OK, the main point for me is that, I HATE massive generalization. 1 government improperly handling the event = 1.2 billion morons or ****ers

[bookworm_020]

Originally Posted by peterloo

How would you feel if you were a German or the Sydney mayor, how would you feel if someone pulled out such a trick on you and embarass you in front of the public?

It's still considered to be one of the best jokes ever pulled during an Olympics here in Australia, at least we did it ourselves!

I know that the IOC were nervous when the Greeks did the global torch relay in 2004, but were surprised how well it went and they allowed the Chinese to do it as well. I think they be the last time it happens

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/pro...420302060.html

Does anyone have a timetable of were it will land? I don't think it will get a good reception anywhere it goes.

[Tchocky]

It's great to see people getting up in arms about something.
Even in Paris :p

[peterloo]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

Does anyone have a timetable of were it will land? I don't think it will get a good reception anywhere it goes.

Yes, it is released. Check out here
http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/journey/
Although it does not tell you when will the torch arrive into a particular city, you can still calculate it yourself, today in Paris, so tomorrow San Franciso, and so on

I just feel that they released the timetable late, perhaps in an attempt for not allowing the protesters organise themselves by giving them limited time. Yet, if we consider the protest in France and UK, this has failed.

Finally the protest stuff, based on Beijing's track record and her unwillingness to face her history, I'm afraid that protests will break out in most of the countries. The diplomants of the countries within the route faces the greatest trouble - they cannot let the torch extinguish and let the protesters embarass Beijing freely and out of control, which will result in great diplomatic trouble, but they cannot ban the protests either.

[Trex]

Originally Posted by peterloo

How would you feel if you were a German or the Sydney mayor, how would you feel if someone pulled out such a trick on you and embarass you in front of the public?

Not sure about Sydney, but if it were Berlin c. 1936, it would have been a good idea there too.

Right should not be left to go alone into the dark night.

[Steel_Tomb]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200804...t-43a8d4f.html

Typical behaviour of the Chiese communist government. Willing to blame everyone else but themselves. If they hadn't been so blunt and suspicious of their doing's in Tibet its likely that this wouldn't happen. I have to laugh at the propaganda though, "Tibet independence seperatist forces" makes us sound like bloody militia lol. We are normal people who have a voice, unlike in china where that voice has been brutally ripped out!

I wish a quick death to communism, China would be so prosperous if it weren't for that arcane failed ideology!

[peterloo]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200804...t-43a8d4f.html

Typical behaviour of the Chiese communist government. Willing to blame everyone else but themselves. If they hadn't been so blunt and suspicious of their doing's in Tibet its likely that this wouldn't happen. I have to laugh at the propaganda though, "Tibet independence seperatist forces" makes us sound like bloody militia lol. We are normal people who have a voice, unlike in china where that voice has been brutally ripped out!

I wish a quick death to communism, China would be so prosperous if it weren't for that arcane failed ideology!

I believe it is mainly because the Chinese government failed to forsee such a event, with such a ferocity. When Tibet had the protest started, the local government dared not make such a important decision, to banish by force, or allow them to continue. They asked the povience government, and then the central government.

As what I'd said, the government and leaders failed to forcast such an incident. So they didn't prepare any plans to handle the event in the case it break out. As a result, they resorted to their old way, unfortunately.

[Skybird]

Peterloo, as a German I must remind you that Germany, this country I live in, has left behind the tyranny it once has born, while China's party-regime still is stuck in the midst of it. That's why I don't pay respect to the Chinese officials or a Chinese mayor being embarrassed by a Olympics hoax like you posted about, and that is why such a hoax in case of Australia did not do any damage, and wouldn't not do any damage in Germany these days. But in china, the person doing that hoax probably would end with years in prison, or worse.

I see that "face" is an important issue in Chinese culture and mentality, but I also think it is hopelessly exaggerated beyond the borders to ridicule. My opinion may not change that, but when even the most brutal, barbaric crimes and tortures and killings become an object that runs second in importance to save the torturers or killer's "face", then I know that some most essential priorities are totally distorted, and that by the result the sensitivity to "face"-issues is simply wrong. For example, justice is far more impornt than saving face. Or freedom. Or peace. A mind thinking that war could be waged to save one's face, that freedom can be turned into dictatorship in order to save one's face, and justice can be turned into injustice to prevent loosing one'sS face, is a sick, brutal and deeply perverted mind. It's the mind of a criminal, murderous gangster. and that pretty much sums up what I think about the Chinese governments since Mao. And i explicitly include the government of the present.

I often said that regarding various things and issues, Europeans as well as Americans will need to accept that they have to change, from politics over economics to missionary spirit. I tell China the same: some things in your cultural self-understanding you have to change. America is not the standard to which all civilisation must compare. the EU is not the one global standard to which all civilisation must compare.

And China isn't such a central standard either.

Germen newspaper Die Welt just reported that the IOC is seriously considering to ban the tradition of the torch altogether now. And the German IOC also sees increasing debate wether one is right to forbid athletes free speech and saying their opinion on Tibet while being in China. In the end, a sports commitee and a group of bureaucrats is not in the legal position to partly suspend key items of our nation'S constitution. It tells something about their glorious self-perception that they think they have a right to do so. The voices saying this order" has to be taken back and has to be limited to forbidding participation in protests marches, are increasing in number. I hope that the decision gets taken back indeed, and that other nations follow. I also hope that the Chinese regime will deeply regret the day when they decided to sign in for the competition to win the games in 2008, for they obviously expected that all world would agree to their interpretation of freedom: to suppress all anti-Chinese protests, and keep the games running as a meaningless farce with not the smallest Olympic spirit in them, that got killed by commerce and Chinese brutality in close cooperation. This year's games will the greatest lie of games in the history of the Olympics after WWII. I hope it all boils up and away and blow up right in their faces.

And you, Peterloo, must only feel targeted by my attack against "China" in so far as you support and back the official Chinese position regarding the Olympics and Tibet and the party's interpretation of freedom. And if you do not back the government's actings and positions, you have no reason to feel offended by me, for you do not belong to the addressed receivers, then - and if these feel offended, I couldn't care less, for I do not use to "save my face" by hiding it behind a reflecting visor, like Chinese policies use to do. In the end it runs all down to just this: the Chinese government demanding not to be correctly held responsible for the crimes it commits, and labelling that demand as a question of politeness.

Now considering the Nuremberg trials being run with an attitude of allowing the Nazi defendants to "save their faces". Absurd.

[Steel_Tomb]

Originally Posted by peterloo

I believe it is mainly because the Chinese government failed to forsee such a event, with such a ferocity. When Tibet had the protest started, the local government dared not make such a important decision, to banish by force, or allow them to continue. They asked the povience government, and then the central government.

As what I'd said, the government and leaders failed to forcast such an incident. So they didn't prepare any plans to handle the event in the case it break out. As a result, they resorted to their old way, unfortunately.

They underestimated the taste of freedom, the Soviet leaders made the same mistake after Glasnost and Perestroika. The people had tasted a sample of freedom, and people don't give that up lightly. Funny how history repeats itself so frequently. It would seem people don't learn from their predecesors mistakes!

[Trex]

Skybird - Well said.

[peterloo]

I would like to respond to Skybird's post (sorry as I can't quote due to its long length. Combined with the length of my post, it would make this post unnecessarily long)

Skybird, you get the point that "face" is really quite an important stuff in all Chinese, especially for the leaders. Admitting errors is considered to be the ultimate face loser these days.

I don't mind admitting errors, and I believe most other Chinese don't as well as we don't put excessive emphasis one the face stuff. All of us do care about our face but we will not do it in an overdosed way. We have an idiom saying that if we can know our mistakes and if we can bring out change, this will be one of the best things in the world

Unfortunately, the government, especially the leaders, who gained some power by trade, by holding the USA bonds, by its ballistic missiles inventory, become so arrogant that they do not, under any circumstances, admit errors that they had made. Shifting the burden of the mistake to the other seems to be one of the ways to solve problem.s

IF you read my first post here, I made a clear statement that, I don't agree with the way how Beijing is handling this crisis.

But I'm afraid that there are some sort of massive generalization here and in other foreign communities, and this type of generalization, of course, will not hurt me as long as I choose to remain annoymonous. But, this type of generalization will bring out mis-understanding between Chinese and Westerner who avocate peace and freedom. This misunderstanding is dangerous since we all know that crisis and wars evolves from misunderstandings.

I am not trying to defend the Chinese government, after You ,skybird, proofed me how improper is the government has been when trying to handle the Tibet crisis in a post before. I am NOT trying to say that Beijing is all right these days, however, I just feel that some of the misunderstandings should be resolved. This is especially important when the globalization is the global trend.

[CptSimFreak]

People sure do like to throw words like 'freedom' around without even knowing what that word means.

[Skybird]

China loses control of the games:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...546156,00.html

Western PR professionals have already developed a name for China's so-called journey of harmony, which is turning out to be such a dramatic embarrassment for Beijing. They have dubbed the Olympic Torch the "Flame of Shame." Still, all calls for boycotts have so far been half-hearted and have been met with fears of offending the growing world power, eagerness to protect business investments and a disinclination to disappoint Olympic athletes. But the athletic event has already lost its allure -- the hope that the cosmopolitan celebration would finally establish China as a full-fledged member of the modern world has evaporated.

It is cynism at it's maximum that IOC rules forbid any political statement inside the athletes' Olympic camps, while the whole show is being run as a political PR and propaganda show by the hosting nation for which these rules obviously are not valid. These will be the most political games since the Olympics 1936, even the double-boycott 1980 and 1984 was not so upheated, I would say. And it is naive to say in general the Olympics are not political. Sports very often is the continuation of politics by other means. and if sports is used to explicitly show that it is unpolitical - that intention itself again turns it into a political event nevertheless. International sports not being political is as impossible as is the attemnpt not to communicate - every social scientist and social sciences disciplines agrees on and knows that it is impossible not to communicate. Politicians are heavily involved with sports events, trying to boost their profile by seeking closeness to successful athletes and teams, and what else if not politics is it if heads of state coinsider to travel to the opening ceremony - or now are boycotting it? germany'S president and chancellor both have said they will not go to Bejing. the president explicitly referred to the human rights situation when explaing his decision. and that athletes also say the games are not political - well, it is selfish, of course, but also: naive.

I would wish German TV would not do any coverage of the games, especially no live coverage. I myself will not jump to the TV and switch off the daily news when they come to sports, but I will not switch on any dedicated Olympics program. I could only hope that so many people will do like i do so that the TV audience quotas are so low that they are a financially very costly desaster for the broadcasters. But that hope is illusory only, I know.

[CptSimFreak]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas

Oh no! free media is modifying images to make China look bad....say it isn't so!

[Trex]

Talk about amateurish. I wonder where in Beijing this was produced.

First, the examples shown should not be taken at face value. I plan to try and dig up copies of those publications to see if they really said what is claims or if this is just another crude forgery. Just one bell-ringer: Beijing banned foreign media from Tibet, so...

Second, those uniforms may not be the standard blue police togs, but they look remarkably like some PRA uniforms which have appeared of late.

The last tripe I've seen like this was produced by the Soviets showing their peaceloving army 'defending itself' after having invaded Czechoslovakia.

Go suck your thumb, kid. Maybe that'll pacify you.