Are You a Creationist or an Evolutionist? (See Post For Details)

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Personally, these topics don't bother me at all. I do think atheists sometimes don't like to be confronted with the concept of an infinite God though.

While I don't consider myself an atheist per se, it's not the concept of an infinite God that bothers me, but quite the opposite: traditional religious views of God, in my opinion, actually very much lower him to the role of a babysitter for the human race. I'm actually uncomfortable with the idea of a God who I can talk to when I want, who will save me when I ask for it, and who is otherwise responsible for many of the human behaviours I see around me. It's illogical and contradictory - if that's what God is, then I want no part of that God because that's just not a good God and he's got some explaining to do for the human race he seems so obsessed with.

I'm not an atheist per se and I do believe in what could be called supernatural energies out there involved in the universe, and I do believe in natural laws being essentially godlike, but there's no way you'll get me to believe in a conscious, actively responsive God that is specifically obsessed with interfering directly in human life on earth. On the other hand I feel it to be beautiful and right to be a finite part of something so great as an infinite universe of an infinite god.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Is it beyond the power of an infinite God to create humans who perhaps grow a tad larger over time due to improved health conditions? ...or perhaps in the same species of turtle give one a longer neck to more easily reach the food it needs? Darwin recanted his own theories before he died, and it's also fairly well known that his origin of the species was targetted more at racial superiority.

This is an outright lie, allso it is completely irrelevant to the validity of the theory of evolution. You should really look into Darwins life, if you were to do so you would find that he was not a racist, not even by a longshot. If you try to "refute" this by quoting the full title of his "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" and refering to the word races, then I could safely say you have not read his work, because in context the word race as he used it has the same meaning as the word species nowadays.

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Personally, these topics don't bother me at all. I do think atheists sometimes don't like to be confronted with the concept of an infinite God though.

Have you not considered that its perhaps theists that don't like being confronted with the concept of a an indifferent godless universe?

I prefer to just rely on faith for my personal saving knowledge of Christ, but scientifically speaking, there are just too many unknowns to be so absolutely certain that God's hand can just be dismissed...

Do I need to prove there's a God?

Well, scientifically speaking yes you do.

Darwin recanted his own theories before he died,

Darwin never recanted any of his scientific views on his death bed.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CG/CG001.html

and it's also fairly well known that his origin of the species was targetted more at racial superiority.

Again this is not true.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA005_1.html

All I can say to those who dismiss God is... I hope for your own sake, you're right. In which case, all you need to endure is your own pointless life. The full realization of that must certainly be a depressing point to ponder. If God does exist however, and if the Bible is in fact true, perhaps not all believers in creation are wasting away their precious Sunday morning nap time paying homage to some fictitious being. Perhaps the uplifting and joyful message of the Gospel is not all just blissful ignorance.

Oh don't worry about us atheists. While your spending all of your time wondering about what 'the next life' is like we'll actually be living this one.

The worst case scenario for me is, I end up no better off than an atheist.

Not so, what if you have been worshipping the wrong god?

Although, the hope of living happily into eternity gives me a more joyful outlook during my short existance on this planet. In terms of eternity, is there really any upside for an atheist? ...anything to look forward to?

Well actually, it would be nice to live on after death, but as I have not seen any evidence for the excistance of an after-life; and the evidence would suggest that I will die at some point in the future (something which I cannot change) then there is no point worrying about it. All I can do is attempt to make the best of my exsistence as long as it continues.

If you only see your life as 'killing time' until you get to heaven then I can only say that you are a truely impoverished human.

To me, the argument that there is no creator is akin to looking at a painting and suggesting there is no painter... Through a series of random events, it just happened to come into existance.

You are assuming that there has to be a creator.

If we accept that everything has a creator then consider this: Who created god?

Afteral something must have created him he didn't appear through a series of random events.

Which by the way, sounding as ridiculous as it may, is more statistically likely to happen than a whole infiinite universe just popping out of an infinitely small point. ...and even if you do subscribe to the big bang tiny point theory... What caused the infinite universe to exist in a single tiny point to begin with?

No one knows, but the Big Bang theory is based upon scientific evidence not faith so there is no comparison between a creator god and scientific explanations of the beginning of the universe.

Perhaps it was God putting his plan into motion that caused the eruption of life from infinite nothingness?

maybe but until you have scientific evidence of this, heres one unbeliever who will continue to 'un-believe'

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

Oh don't worry about us atheists. While your spending all of your time wondering about what 'the next life' is like we'll actually be living this one.

I'll drink to that!

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'll drink to that!

Hear Hear!

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'm not an atheist per se and I do believe in what could be called supernatural energies out there involved in the universe, and I do believe in natural laws being essentially godlike, but there's no way you'll get me to believe in a conscious, actively responsive God that is specifically obsessed with interfering directly in human life on earth. On the other hand I feel it to be beautiful and right to be a finite part of something so great as an infinite universe of an infinite god.

The Bibilical definition of God is not defined as "supernatural energies". I'm afraid by your own difinition, in contrast to the Bible, you are an atheist. You either believe in the one all knowing, all powerful, infinite, eternal, perfect, unchanging God. ...or you don't.

I guess you could put up the common argument that, "God is whatever I choose to believe him to be." Which is OK, I guess... but you have to realize you're putting yourself in the position to judge and/or create God. It's no different than worshipping a golden calf or some other graven image that we should happen to dream up.

It's pandemic in the minds of man to view God as an unfair celestial being who interferes in our lives as opposed to the One that is in control. We don't come right out and say it, but we prefer to elevate ourselves and think of ourselves as God-like while trying to downplay the importance of God or to somehow put him subserviant to man. As if God needs or owes man anything...

I do happen to enjoy the practice of evangelism in my daily life. A common objection I hear is similar to one of yours, "God is Love, and if He loves us how can He let bad things happen to us?" God has chosen to allow sin to exist.. it's sin that causes the pain in your life. We brought it on ourselves, our free will combined with our self-centered aspirations to become God or God-like was our own undoing. God is loving, but God is also just. He is perfectly righteous and just, and does not allow sin to go unpunished. We have all sinned and fall short of what God requires of us, none have perfectly kept His commandments. Only a fool would stand before a rightous God and demand justice; you beg for mercy. You deserve his wraith, and instead he offers you a gift, out of love. He did for us, what no man could do, and for some reason, He allows you and I our free will to accept or reject His most gracious gift.

...one day I intend to ask Him why He chose to single me out.

What would you say if you were standing before God and he should happen to ask, "Why should I let you into my Heaven?" :hmm:

[XLjedi]

It's OK, I'm use to hostility... I'm told to fully expect it.

I'll be happy to browse for info on Darwin's work, perhaps I've been somewhat misguided. Admittedly, I'm speaking a bit from things I've heard. I shouldn't have mentioned it really, since Darwin's stance doesn't really influence my faith anyway.

Will you in return read the book of Mark?
(I'm not even asking you to read John)

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

It's OK, I'm use to hostility... I'm told to fully expect it.

I'll be happy to browse for info on Darwin's work, perhaps I've been somewhat misguided. Admittedly, I'm speaking a bit from things I've heard. I shouldn't have mentioned it really, since Darwin's stance doesn't really influence me anyway.

Will you in return read the book of Mark?
(I'm not even asking you to read John)

My intention was not to be hostile, but frustration got the better of me, I appologize. Lies like that are often repeated by profesional creationists who make money progagatng this kind of misinformation.
And I do definately intend to read the bible in full again, but im not sure yet as to which version to choose.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

And I do definately intend to read the bible in full again, but im not sure yet as to which version to choose.

It's nearly impossible to pick up and literally read the Bible from beginning to end and fully comprehend its message. Just read Mark (carefully) and give me your impressions... some very interesting things in there about how Jesus interacted with his disciples. These twelve really come across as misfit misguided children... perhaps not the story you would expect to read. And certainly not the qualities you would expect to see in folks who are supposed to be the foundation for a religion. I try to put myself in Jesus shoes having to deal with these guys, and I think, "I'm done dealing with you hard-headed totally ignorant people." With His own disciples he had to do things with them, two, three times... and it still didn't sink in. He fed the multitudes, not once, but twice! He seemingly had to do everything at least twice... There's even a verse in Mark where Jesus asks, "Good? Why do you call me good? Only God is good." It's pretty remarkable actually.

King James version (KJV) can be difficult... I think people like to use that version when talking from the pulpit or for reading specific passages aloud during the holidays. It's got a certain historical grammatical appeal I s'pose...

New International Version (NIV) seems to have taken some liberties in some areas. I've noted that theologens seem to like this version the least, although I'm not saying they don't like it, or necessarily strongly disagree with it, just not the favorite.

I like the New American Standard version (NAS); seems to strike a happy balance. I can comprehend it, and the translation seems to be most on par with the KJV.

A friend of mine has a (very thick) version which has every single verse of the Bible in all three versions, to compare and contrast. Occasionally, he'll come across a verse where it's helpful in understanding to read all three.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

The Bibilical definition of God is not defined as "supernatural energies". I'm afraid by your own difinition, in contrast to the Bible, you are an atheist. You either believe in the one all knowing, all powerful, infinite, eternal, perfect, unchanging God. ...or you don't.

Not to sound hostile, that's not my intention - but unless you're coming from a Christian perspective (which you are, and that's fine) - the Bible certainly doesn't have a monopoly on definitions of God. There have been many others and I have chosen my own view based on evidence. For one, I consider myself to be no less (and of course no more) Buddhist than Christian in that sense. Both have their own religious views and one certainly wouldn't call a Buddhist "atheist".


Personally, I will be very happy when scientists finally discover God at the sub-atomic level (the elusive "god particle" they've been talking about for a while). That will satisfactorily answer all my questions as to the nature of things.
As far as...

What would you say if you were standing before God and he should happen to ask, "Why should I let you into my Heaven?"

Putting aside my beliefs (or lack thereof) into this sort of situation, I'd note that I've lived my life with what I believe to be a Christian mindset and acted based on what I see as the Christian philosophy - in which, however you slice it, the first and foremost thing is love for fellow man and all creation, acting with a clear conscience, and exercising goodwill come well before faith in scriptural dogma. Within human limits, I believe I've followed this with conviction. All in all, I consider myself to have lived a conscientious life, did my work quietly and helped other people as well as I could. And if God sends me to hell for living that way - well, I'll go down laughing at him.

I'm very familiar with religion mind you. I went to church for most of my childhood and went to a religious high school. My supposed 'atheism' doesn't come from rejection of religious values, simply from a qualification of them based on my own expereince and knowledge. I think there is an essential good in religions - many different religions - but it comes from aspects of their philosophies, not their dogmas. In Christianity, I have no interest in "the Word of God" but a lot of interest in "what would Jesus do?", basically.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

The Bibilical definition of God is not defined as "supernatural energies". I'm afraid by your own difinition, in contrast to the Bible, you are an atheist. You either believe in the one all knowing, all powerful, infinite, eternal, perfect, unchanging God. ...or you don't.

While that is true in the strictest context, not believing in the Christian God is not what makes one an atheist. By definition, and atheist believes in no god at all, and that's not what CCIP said.

I personally have gone from being a believing Christian to being more of a deist, slightly to the right of an agnostic. The fact that I don't know which is right, and choose to reserve judgement, may make me wrong, but does not make me an atheist.

After all, a lot of Romans defined both Jews and Christians as athiests, precisely because they only believed in one god.

[TarJak]

I just want to know who created evolution...

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Putting aside my beliefs (or lack thereof) into this sort of situation, I'd note that I've lived my life with what I believe to be a Christian mindset and acted based on what I see as the Christian philosophy - in which, however you slice it, the first and foremost thing is love for fellow man and all creation, acting with a clear conscience, and exercising goodwill come well before faith in scriptural dogma. Within human limits, I believe I've followed this with conviction. All in all, I consider myself to have lived a conscientious life, did my work quietly and helped other people as well as I could. And if God sends me to hell for living that way - well, I'll go down laughing at him.

That's actually the most common response.

We hope that God will "grade on a curve" so to speak. That we've done more good things than bad. Therefore, a just God would not punish my shortcomings, He would instead weigh it against the things I've done that are good. It's what's referred to as a "works-based" response... If we committed murder just once, would a "good" judge let it go unpunished? What if we just drove over the speed limit once? Would a "good" judge waive the fee? ...then what should we expect of a perfect judge, one who is without flaw?

Man has a very difficult time acknowledging the need for a savior. We would much rather prefer to think that we have full control over our own salvation, that we can save ourselves, without God's help. ...and if God doesn't like it; fine, I'll go to hell. That's an interesting and very defiant position to take. :hmm:

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

Not so, what if you have been worshipping the wrong god?

:rotfl:

Well, in that case, I guess you and I will eventually get to meet... and then we can spend eternity pondering our ignorance face to face.

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

:rotfl:

Well, in that case, I guess you and I will eventually get to meet... and then we can spend eternity pondering our ignorance face to face.

You never know that scorned god might have something nasty in store for you. I can expain away my non-belief as simple dumbkopf ignorance of any god, but you would have been willfully worshipping a false one.