dubbya bush you really know how to support war vets...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by turnerg

Wow, I drop off the sonar from Subsim after joining the Marines, and i guess some things don't change. Always lot's of political debate going on...

Anyways, what if I told you the situation "over there" wasn't as grim as the media says it is? What if I said that my buddies over there right now are literally bored because the Iraqi troops have really taken things over running patrols, checkpoints, etc. You never see it on CNN, oh no. But then when the troops say anything other that what the media says, ooohhh were brainwashed, we don't know whats going on. I knew fully well that when I joined up, I could end up like swiss cheese, or dead. But I'd rather go and do it voluntarily, so others don't have to. One of the many reasons I hate politics. No matter what you do, what your intentions, people will always fling mud, whether you are actually doing something good for other people or not. They always point out the worst in someone./Rant off

Not wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Not wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

Excuse me Skybird did you just discount a serving US Marines opinion as myopic while claiming that you know better?

[Gorduz]

It's interesting to hear what you are saing Turnerg. And you are right the media is twisted, and it is really hard to get a good view of whats happening. Thats one of the main reason I'm bothering reading all these political posts. It's so many people here with different views on every subjects. I really hope for all the soldiers serving, and not atleast for the Iraqis that you have right and that the situation is bettering.

[turnerg]

So having the right to a free life, and voting is worthless? Seems to me if we just sit here in our borders, and don't help anyone but ourselves, everyone complains and asks for our help.... but if we do anything other than what the UN wants, we're sticking our noses where we don't belong.... which is it? Turtle up, or be world police? Saddam and his regime was on our list for a long time, and the UN's as well. He had it coming.

And long time no see Skybird

[SteminDemon13]

Not wanting to fight over it, just reminding that a single man's view on one small part of the battlefield is one thing, and the overall view on the whole may still look very different. After all, the violence and bloodtoll for the civil society in Iraq is exceeding anything positive there may be, or may or may not have been planned or hoped for.

Skybird, He is not just a single man, He is a Marine. Marine, thank you for serving. That is the problem, anyone that talks of success is downplayed just as you have done. Are you over there right now? Have you helped make progress or have seen progress in Iraq? If so please let us know. There are many stories like his floating around, but that's good news, and good news doesn't sell like bad news. People have it in their mindset that anything out of Iraq is bad and just ignore all the positive things going on. I am sick and tired of the people who have served there being downplayed and passed off as nonsense. When on the news do you see a story on "the progress in Iraq"? Britany spears gets more headlines than any success in Iraq ever has and it's a damn shame.

You could be doing so much good and not to many people will notice, but screw up once and people remember it forever. Skybird, I have read many of your posts and you do carry yourself well, and you and Letum arguing was funny, but it looks like you two are friends again . We all learn new things each day, so maybe today you can learn to look at the other side of things when it comes to Iraq, especially when it is coming from people on the battlefield, not just some dumb ass reporter whose only goal is to get the worst news he/she can sell.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Excuse me Skybird did you just discount a serving US Marines opinion as myopic while claiming that you know better?

I said what I said, not more, not less. You are free to make it something personal, or not. since i used a general form, you can assume I spoke in general, not necessarily with special regard to turnerg. He made a voluntary decision, btw. Since I never commented on that, you do not know what I think of it.

But I certainly do not accept any views to be obligatory for others, because somebody is in active service. Which you again are free to take as a minimizing of this person, or not. that is your decision, not mine.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by turnerg

So having the right to a free life, and voting is worthless? Seems to me if we just sit here in our borders, and don't help anyone but ourselves, everyone complains and asks for our help.... but if we do anything other than what the UN wants, we're sticking our noses where we don't belong.... which is it? Turtle up, or be world police? Saddam and his regime was on our list for a long time, and the UN's as well. He had it coming.

And long time no see Skybird

Hope you are well. Disagreements yes or no, I certainly do not wish you bad. Take care of yourself.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SteminDemon13

Skybird, He is not just a single man, He is a Marine. Marine, thank you for serving. That is the problem, anyone that talks of success is downplayed just as you have done. Are you over there right now? Have you helped make progress or have seen progress in Iraq? If so please let us know. There are many stories like his floating around, but that's good news, and good news doesn't sell like bad news. People have it in their mindset that anything out of Iraq is bad and just ignore all the positive things going on. I am sick and tired of the people who have served there being downplayed and passed off as nonsense. When on the news do you see a story on "the progress in Iraq"? Britany spears gets more headlines than any success in Iraq ever has and it's a damn shame.

You could be doing so much good and not to many people will notice, but screw up once and people remember it forever. Skybird, I have read many of your posts and you do carry yourself well, and you and Letum arguing was funny, but it looks like you two are friends again . We all learn new things each day, so maybe today you can learn to look at the other side of things when it comes to Iraq, especially when it is coming from people on the battlefield, not just some dumb ass reporter whose only goal is to get the worst news he/she can sell.

estimations of civilian casualties widely range from some 50 thousand to over 600 thousand. That should make it clear to everybody who suffers the lion's share of of the war consequences.

[Peto]

Originally Posted by turnerg

Anyways, what if I told you the situation "over there" wasn't as grim as the media says it is? What if I said that my buddies over there right now are literally bored because the Iraqi troops have really taken things over running patrols, checkpoints, etc. You never see it on CNN, oh no. But then when the troops say anything other that what the media says, ooohhh were brainwashed, we don't know whats going on. I knew fully well that when I joined up, I could end up like swiss cheese, or dead. But I'd rather go and do it voluntarily, so others don't have to. One of the many reasons I hate politics. No matter what you do, what your intentions, people will always fling mud, whether you are actually doing something good for other people or not. They always point out the worst in someone./Rant off

I certainly don't doubt what you say turnerg. In fact--there is no question that we are getting a skewwed report of reality by the media--as well as from politicians. My son also feels as you do as far as volunteering. And I certainly wish/hope my son finds one of those quiet sectors you spoke about. He's collected enough Purple Hearts on his 1st tour.

As far as whether or not we should have invaded Iraq: I have a couple neighbors who deserve to have their butts kicked. That doesn't mean I'll go over and do it. Doing it would only bring me down to their level. But--If I chose to do it, you can bet I'd do it right! The way the Iraq war has been handled is a travisty, based on wishfull thinking rather than reality. And the result of that means you--as a soldior--have been put in more danger than is nessecary. It will take at least a decade for our military to recover from this war.

This is not to mention Iran, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Pakistan, Kurdistan, Russia. We certainly have put more than Iraq on alert! The world is far more dangerous today because we invaded Iraq. Thinking otherwise would be--again--wishfull thinking. And if we choose to attack Iran--like our administration seems to want to do--we had better hang on to our collective butts for a wild ride. Iran is much tougher than Iraq was and has farther reaching influence.

Well--I could go on for hours--I have "some" international experience so have deliberately not gone into detail. I thank you--as I do all veterans for serving. And I respect your post--it is intelligent and you make excellent points. I too hate politics and mud-slinging. Unfortunately, the world has become a much more muddy place in the last few years.

All the Best! Salute!

Peto

[Skybird]

And a second time I must agree with almost all that Peto said.

[turnerg]

Well, a little more on topic so to speak, vet, and ESPECIALLY wounded vet benefits needs a serious overhaul. The system was broke before Bush came into office, but it really needs work. Geez, the Romans gave you a plot of land, and you could end up being in upper society... Vets are the ones that pay for everyone's freedoms, that certainly is something i'll watch for this round of elections.

And btw skybird, you might be surprised that I agree that war should never have to be an option. We SHOULD be able to ask guys like Saddam to not gas their own people, torture athletes, etc. What would you find worse: reading that a helpless person was beat to death, or that there were people all around, fully capable of stopping it, yet they let it happen claiming it was not their bussiness, despite whether they thought it was wrong or not? You are right though, hasty action does bring serious concequences, but on the Marine side of the war, there was no lack of motivation, even when we had old gear. Since Vietnam we usually had army hand-me-downs, all the way up until the current administration. Sometimes it takes that "cold bucket of water in the face" like the issues we had with armor, weapons, etc. to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Now, we get brand new stuff, new rifles, new armor, helmets, cammies, stuff that surely never happened when the clintons were in

[Skybird]

turnerg,

a. saddam in place, and his sons and himself commiting crimes against their own people never has led to such chaos and levels of bloodshed after the war against Iran (where they enjoyed Western and US support), as the Iraqi has suffered since after 2003. This could hardly be called an improvement, then. Bloodshet , torture on the level as under saddam, ethnic hate, religious conflict, and crime levels show a detoriation in fact. A future tyrant making a stand against Iran and thus being supported by the WH, can be expected in case the Shia are not successful in installing a iran-supported puppet regime. so, in that case the names will have chnaged, while the dirty games remains to be the same.

We have a german proverb, that goes like this "Den Teufel mit dem Beelzebub austreiben". It means to repalkce one evil with another. Those good-willingly fighting for this and thinking of it in terms of freedom and democracy - are getting abused by their own leaders.

b. the war had been launched for very specific public reasons, pointing at a (non-existing) link to Al Quaeda, and pointing to a threat being emitted by iraq. the latter still is unproven, and except theories that aggressive debators even would not hesitate to label as conspiracy theories, no evidence, substantial and solid clues have been found until today. As was repeatedly said by now: a reason you give before a war is a reason. A reason you construct after a war - is a foul excuse. It does not matter that neocons had the Iraq war written in their agenda black on white since the early nineties -this was not the reason given to the public for going to war. the war was (officially) about Saddam's link to Al Quaeda and his link to 9/11 and Iraq being short to have nuclear missiles - these were the reasons being told to the public.

c. the war has strengthend Iran's postion in the whole area, and its influence in Iraq. It has created more enemies, than it has killed enemies, and still is breeding them. Before, their was no terrorists in iraq - now they are swarming in that country. US intel community itself admites this. It has helped "fundamentalist Islam" (as we love in the West to make a difference between it at "moderate" Islam) to win the momentum in the propaganda war, and maximize it. It has messed up relations with long-standing allies and friends. It has a dramatic impact of state finances in america. It has put many other military projects on halt, due to the still increasing costs of the Iraq war. It has worn out equipement and raised replacement needs in very critical quantities. Just days ago a comittee released a study saying that the real war costs - including the so-called "hidden" costs" - need to be calculated twice as high as they have been so far, and that at current projections for plans over the next ten years, the overall costs would surpass the 3 trillion dollars-mark. see this in combination with the highly vulnerable (not weak, but vulknerable, whcih is two very different things)state finances, both things i linked to at the end.

d. Concerning your example of a crime happening and the crowd standing by - your forgot that I have been a psychologist. I only can point you to social psychology's rich literature on the anonymity of mass societies preventing the individual to accept responsibility in such a situation. Unfortunately, there are all too many example were women had been raped in public places - and people staring and making mockery, or walking away and turn their backs. Sometimes several dozens of people being able to help turned away! People getting murdered and yelling for help - and people shutting windows and closing doors, or looking, chatting with friends on the phone. People being rolled over by cars and vans - and people not trying to stop the driver, or even help the hurt victim, or even call the officials. Alls this - unfortunately - is very, very common, and interestingly you can observe comparable events if using mice and rats in a laboratoy setting and make them live in totally crowded, unnaturally crowded environemnts - they first stop to be cooperative, and then turn against each other. Rats start a bite wars, until most got killed and only very few survived. the sense for the "social" dies first, it seems, braking the communities backbone that way.

If you are unlucky, and remain to be a warrior of your nation for long enough, you will find yourself in such a battletheatre in the future sooner or later, because sociologists project that many of the mega-cties that are still growing sooner or later will become ungovernable, and will then be like infectious places spreading international anarchy and crime being commited with paramilitary means . And if these cities or nations have any value or are of any interest for america, you (means: US forces) will be sent there for whatever the mission is. A first taste you can get when looking at Sao Paolo, and crime activities in some other Southamerican cities. - So the example you point at - really is old news for sociologists.



On yur refernce to the Marine's motivation, I can only come back to August'S comment, who suspected I tried to minimize your opinon as "one man's voice" only. I told him I answered on a general level, not with rega to your person, and that was really my intention indeed. You voiced your view of things, from the background of your new life and your experience. but as a matter of fact we have had for example here in the forum, but in media as well, references to other soldiers of your very same army, the US army, who after having been in Iraq just said the opposite of what you say. Could you really so easily wipe their view off the table as well? Maybe because they for exmaple have "just" been army, and no marines? We have seen very substantial criticism and pessimis even from high ranks, whom I expect to really be in possession of informations that enable them to have a greater view on the whole, than the single John Smith grunt doing a tour in the area of Baghdad alone. I do not know anybody in Iraq, but I know three german BW officers who are or were in Afghanistan. they too tell by experience different stories and versions of events. One of them is a higher officer, and he had a pessimistic description. the others were more exposed in the field, and also painted a negative picture, but - a different picture, being pessimistic from being seen in a very different angle. Also, most of the German now for reasons of self.-protection are being trapped inside thier compund for weeks and months, almost begging for being send on now wquite danerous patrols outside. Many germans doinga tour there - do not see anything outside the camp. their image of the overall situation thus can be considerdd to be minimal only. The first of the germans I mentioned referred to strategic variables, and longterm developements, the latter referred to tings that were very real for them and had been withnessed by them with their very own senses, on location. One cpuld also speak of a strategic and a tactical perspective.

That'S why I initially said something like that the single soldier out there hardly ever has a representative image of the whole situation. It was not meant as a personal insult. It just is matter of fact. So, you probably only get the whole picture - when putting together the information from as many different sources as possible, veryfying them, sorting out the contradictions and self-interests - and then see what you have. And on that level the pictures looks very different from what you say.



Finally, one personal word, since August indirectly demanded any kind of clearance on it. I am aware that the marine chorps in the US society has some kind of special status, which is respected at least by conservative circles. From my (European) perspective, this is somewhat bewildering, and a bit alienating, and we see it much more pragmatic over here: ghermany has had it's share of militarism, and that has cured us (maybe more than is healthy for us today...). However, though being critical of such - as I see it - glorfication of military traditions (feel free to disagree), I principally always accept an individual's wish to contribute to a just cause, or more direct: to dedicate him-/herself to serve the just and legal well-being of his people. It is hard to argue against such a wish. Where "people" is replaced with "nation", I am starting to become alarmed, because it is a step away from the concrete matter, the living reality, towards a higher level of abstraction. So, in principal I respect somebody's decision to become a soldier (that's what I exclusively see you as, independant from your military branch), when he says he wants to do a service to his country.

But - always a "but" from me - i would like to point out two things:

First, there are many different ways in which somebody can serve his nation, people, community, or ideals. Participating in the military is just one amongst several, and while not minimizing it I also don't see it as the shining royal way there is. It has it's place, and there it is needed, for msoemtimes military strength simply is needed - but not more, but also: not less.

And second, willing to serve your people as a soldier shall not be mistaken with willing to serve in every war some parts of these people send you to. as a soldier, you have no choice, of course, you must answer certain questions in advance before becoming a recruit, and when you said Yes, then you have no right to refuse to go if you get the order.

What I am about is this: I see a person's decision to become a soldier, and his opinion on a given war, as two totally different things, that'S why from my perspective it must not mean personal insult or attack towards that person having become a soldier when I question the reasons and the wisdom of the wars he/she is being send into. I can question a given war without necessarily question the insitution of the military as a whole, and automatically. You hear that, August? I do not judge people on the basis of wether they are military, or not. A soldier is no worse and no better person and human in my eyes. His' value as a human being is not determined by that, but by his character, his drives, his actions. If he wears a uniform or not is of little concern to me. I even was close to pick that option myself, once (and admit I'm happy today that I did not, due to the stupdiity of our politicians). On the matter discussed here, I build my opinion of people on their answers by which they defend or attack a given war - and this is the ground on which I may debate with them, or not. So, if you maybe take my rejection of the Iraq war as a personal rejection aimed at you or the military in general, you would be wrong.

Three links to threads or essay we had recently, that you might find interesting, but probably have missed. In different ways, the two economic essays (not by me, don't worry) deal with the basis on which the Iraq war is fought, and feeds back into american society. Both are tightly linked, nevertheless.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124944
http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=179
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...07_us_iraq.pdf

So again, let's disagree, but take care of yourself. Hope this longer writing helps to keep any personal hostility out of it. There already has been too much of that.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Curious how "elite_hunter_sh3" remarks have ceased...Thank God.

o really.... and how did you know i magically could not post replies or start new topics??? dont worry, i mentioned your post to neal, hes looking into it...

[ReallyDedPoet]

I am no Bush lover, but is Neal looking into this one too elite hunter :hmm:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...24&postcount=6


RDP

[elite_hunter_sh3]

did WMD exist in iraq?? nope... a major reason to go into iraq was simply because of oil...