Who was the more evil power in WWII ?

[Bear]

Ah, but there is the rub. To blame an emblem, nazi or otherwise for the acts of a "few men" in relation to the size of the nation, lessens the deeds of those who fought not out of madness, but out of duty for their country. Are all guilty? The Russians killed millions, the Nazi's killed millions, the Japs killed millions, the Americans killed millions (combining UTO & PTO), thus is the nature of war.

It is good that when we play these sims we remember not the powers that sent men out to murder, but the men who had the courage to live or die with what they did.

Someone smarter than I is supposed to have said (i wasn't with him that day so i can't be sure he said it.)

"If The Dead Could Return, There Would Be No More War."

[Mostinius]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

i could never willingly put A nazi emblem of any shape or form on my conning tower, nor in a signiture pic for the forums. Others do, but i couldnt do it. (...) I have always respected this portion of history, and respected the human ordeal on the Ubootwaffes side of the story, its quite a story to be sure, and one i have empathy for, but i have never lost perspective of what flag they sailed under.

You make a fair point. I believe it's illegal to display that flag in some countries, not to mention morally dubious in all of them. (That said, it's worth pointing out - though common knowledge, I'm sure - that the swastika itself was a holy symbol in many cultures long before the Nazis got hold of it. We can judge instances from context, of course, and if we're talking about World War II German subs then the context is pretty clear so I can agree wholeheartedly with your position.)

At the risk of sounding like an apologist, though, I do think it bears mentioning that - excluding the SS - most German sailors, soldiers and airmen in that period weren't fighting for the Nazis. At least, that is to say they weren't fighting for the Nazis as we now understand the full ramifications of the term. They were fighting for Germany - for family and friends, home and hearth, ashes and temples, all the usual stuff. We know now what the Nazis stood for, and therefore what the German army, navy and air force were effectively fighting for, but, I suspect, the troops just did what they thought they had to do - as do most combatants in any conflict.

The point I'm rambling around to is that you're entirely right to abhor the flag of that contemptible regime: pull it down, tear it up, burn it, trample it - whatever makes the point. But I'd be surprised if many of those who fought and died under that flag did so in the awareness and conscious support of the atrocities that were being committed under it in other places and by other people.

I don't advocate hero worship. I do advocate the simple acknowledgement of courage - which is to say, if Dr Jeffers will excuse me, feeling the fear and doing it anyway. I don't pretend that both sides were right: the fact is that Germany was wrong. It was the aggressor, and it was rightly defeated. Its masters at that time were evil men who should and will be reviled for all time by decent people. But at the same time I wouldn't want to see someone denied the recognition their courage deserves simply because they fought and died under a flag whose full meaning they probably didn't even realise.

Of course, it's always possible I just have a foolishly fluffy impression of history. At 32, I can't argue that I Was There - but I hope I've picked one or two things up over the years... We Shall See... :hmm:

[Ducimus]

At the risk of sounding like an apologist, though, I do think it bears mentioning that - excluding the SS - most German sailors, soldiers and airmen in that period weren't fighting for the Nazis.

Soundly true. Infact the Ubootwaffe, was argubly the most "unpoltiical" branch of their armed forces. But i will say what set me on my course of thought. Somewhere on uboat.net i found a post once (I can't find it now), by a fellow who claimed to be in the merchant marines during the time. He admonished the posters in this particular thread for hero worship, or rather, words like, "I never thought id hear about admiration for the uboats!" This set me thinking. Here was a man who faced it. On our side of the conflict, and now now, we "youngin's" are bestowing adulation, and praise for the same men who tried to kill him.

Even if his claim is false, the principle remains true. Put yourself into this situation: you find an old man in your home country. (US or UK), and he starts to talk about how it was out in the atlantic as a merchant sailor. How lofty will you hold uboats in admiration then? Will you defend or bestow praise on their actions to this man (a fellow countryman or ally) who was there? To us, the reality of Uboats nothing more then storybook material. We never see, nor feel, nor touch, nor fear. Its just a story. To others, the reality was very different. Its these thoughts, that made me rethink my enthusiasm.

[McBeck]

most German sailors, soldiers and airmen in that period weren't fighting for the Nazis. At least, that is to say they weren't fighting for the Nazis as we now understand the full ramifications of the term. They were fighting for Germany - for family and friends, home and hearth, ashes and temples, all the usual stuff.

This is very true and that makes them no different from any most other fighting soldiers. They were only a tool of politics, so if you want to go into the good/bad discussion dont blame the soldiers, sailors or airmen.

[Mostinius]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Soundly true. Infact the Ubootwaffe, was argubly the most "unpoltiical" branch of their armed forces. But i will say what set me on my course of thought. Somewhere on uboat.net i found a post once (I can't find it now), by a fellow who claimed to be in the merchant marines during the time. He admonished the posters in this particular thread for hero worship, or rather, words like, "I never thought id hear about admiration for the uboats!" This set me thinking. Here was a man who faced it. On our side of the conflict, and now now, we "youngin's" are bestowing adulation, and praise for the same men who tried to kill him.

Even if his claim is false, the principle remains true. Put yourself into this situation: you find an old man in your home country. (US or UK), and he starts to talk about how it was out in the atlantic as a merchant sailor. How lofty will you hold uboats in admiration then? Will you defend or bestow praise on their actions to this man (a fellow countryman or ally) who was there? To us, the reality of Uboats nothing more then storybook material. We never see, nor feel, nor touch, nor fear. Its just a story. To others, the reality was very different. Its these thoughts, that made me rethink my enthusiasm.

I've no reason to wonder whether his claim was false. And yes, I understand what you're saying. In answer, and at the risk of sounding condescending, if I were to meet that man or someone like him I would shut the f--- up and listen to his stories. I would acknowledge his own courage and that of his comrades. And I would always appreciate and be grateful to those people for that courage, without which we couldn't possibly have won the war.

And now, in a time of relative peace when Germany and Britain and America and France and Japan and Russia are friends (if uneasily so sometimes), I have the luxury of being able to acknowledge the bravery and sacrifice of the men and women on all sides - while at the same time recognising and despising the horror and the atrocities inflicted by some.

Only if we're willing to recognise the people involved in that conflict as people can we have any hope of averting the next one.

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by Mostinius

Only if we're willing to recognise the people involved in that conflict as people can we have any hope of averting the next one.

A very profound statement

[namika]

Hmm, really good points from everyone.
This topic is the one which really shows that the posters are mature and serious people when coming to this discussion and not letting themselves rant about the evil xx country.
If all people thought this way I highly doubt there would be any conflicts regarding WW2 in these days. But that's of course only an utopistic dream until people get to know all the sides, their combatants' feelings in WW2 and try to understand that they were human aswell. After that they wouldn't fear them as an "unknown evil".
Old harms are not forgotten. That's natural, becouse people can never really forget such horrific things that have happened. But it is a problem when there are some territorries where the people or some groups of individuals can't set a line between past and present and they still try to make conflicts based ONLY the harms another nation inflicted to them in the past.
Why should a youngster be hated only becouse his/her grandfathers fought on the other side in the war?

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Soundly true. Infact the Ubootwaffe, was argubly the most "unpoltiical" branch of their armed forces. But i will say what set me on my course of thought. Somewhere on uboat.net i found a post once (I can't find it now), by a fellow who claimed to be in the merchant marines during the time. He admonished the posters in this particular thread for hero worship, or rather, words like, "I never thought id hear about admiration for the uboats!" This set me thinking. Here was a man who faced it. On our side of the conflict, and now now, we "youngin's" are bestowing adulation, and praise for the same men who tried to kill him.

Even if his claim is false, the principle remains true. Put yourself into this situation: you find an old man in your home country. (US or UK), and he starts to talk about how it was out in the atlantic as a merchant sailor. How lofty will you hold uboats in admiration then? Will you defend or bestow praise on their actions to this man (a fellow countryman or ally) who was there? To us, the reality of Uboats nothing more then storybook material. We never see, nor feel, nor touch, nor fear. Its just a story. To others, the reality was very different. Its these thoughts, that made me rethink my enthusiasm.

The idea that certain branches of Germany's armed forces were relatively light on politics during the Second World War is helpful for clearing our consciences while playing from the other side, and maybe it even holds some truth - I don't know, I'm not a historian. But as I've said in other threads on the same subject, I refuse to accept that u-boat skippers or whoever should be immune to reprehension. The submariners had a great degree of courage to sail in their iron coffins for month after month, but they lacked courage to escape service to the Nazi regime.

They were fighting for their country and not for the Führer, some say. Just like any Allied sailor. Fair enough, but the circumstances were grossly different compared to those on the other side of the trenches. Germany was not embarked on a defensive mission to repel invaders - at least not for a few years - and this is reflected in the submarine arm, with their extraordinarily long-ranged boats. Goebbels et al certainly did their best to skew the Allies in such a way to make them seem the aggressors, but through the employment of slave labour, the book burnings, the systematic exterminations, and even Hitler's published literature the mission of Germany - to conquer nations and subjugate entire races - was not really a secret.

So I think it's fair enough that many (not all) u-boat captains and crews were not super sieg heil Nazis, you can't lose sight of the larger picture that Ducimus hints at. They departed from their bases with bellies full of torpedos to kill merchant mariners and choke out relief supplies bound for Great Britain. I can't believe that any military officer would do so and not be able to anticipate that this would make possible an eventual invasion and occupation of the British isles and the enslavement of yet another people. So in a bizarre twist I think it took more courage for German submarines to realize what they were actually fighting for and to pop the hatch and surrender to the nearest destroyer, compared to those who fought on with their heads in the sand believing it was their duty to serve their nation regardless of the swastika.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Mostinius

most German sailors, soldiers and airmen in that period weren't fighting for the Nazis.

They sure weren't fighting against the Nazis....

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

They sure weren't fighting against the Nazis....

No they were fighting for their country
How many US or UK soldiers in the middle east now voted for or believe in their leaders ?

Not as extreme but you go where ordered
Now todays soldiers can express their point of view or dissent for a war they dont agree with
But then they dont live in a police state as in Nazi Germany

Bigger picture to look at

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

No they were fighting for their country

Which was run by Nazis.

Sorry, I don't buy it. I'm not saying each individual German soldier and sailor was evil, but they were fighting balls to the wall to advance the goals of a murderous, evil system. I equate it to the South, where Confederate soldiers were willing pawns in defence of slavery.

[bigboywooly]

Did they know it was a murderous evil system in 39 ?
Germany before WW2 was a complex situation
After the Versailles treaty no doubt they would have followed the devil himself if he promised and delivered as Hitler did

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Which was run by Nazis.

Sorry, I don't buy it. I'm not saying each individual German soldier and sailor was evil, but they were fighting balls to the wall to advance the goals of a murderous, evil system. I equate it to the South, where Confederate soldiers were willing pawns in defence of slavery.

Way to take a high school thread that was very entertaining, and twist it up with sound logic that is irrfutable! Good job Neal - you screwed up the entertainment because now this thread is just going to die. I was waiting on a reply from Swede on the subject too!

-S

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Sorry, I don't buy it. I'm not saying each individual German soldier and sailor was evil, but they were fighting balls to the wall to advance the goals of a murderous, evil system. I equate it to the South, where Confederate soldiers were willing pawns in defence of slavery.

And in 1945 to the present they suddenly aren't? In the beginning they believed Hitler. In the middle they questioned. In the end it was for survival, but yes all the way through a portion were pure nazi.

It is a fact that when the armies for the North and South were first formed, only a small minority of the soldiers on either side would have declared that the reason they joined the army was to fight either "for" or "against" slavery.
Southern politicians convinced their majority that the North was threatening their way of life and their culture. Northern politicians convinced their majority that the South, if allowed to secede, was really striking a serious blow at democratic government. In these arguments, both southern and northern politicians were speaking the truth--but not "the whole truth." They knew that to declare the war to be a fight over slavery would cause a lot of the potential soldiers of both sides to refuse to fight.
But was it only about slavery? No. It was also about the constitutional argument over whether or not a state had a right to leave the Union, and--of primary concern to most southern soldiers--the continuation of antebellum southern culture. Although the majority of Southerners had little interest in slaves, slavery was a primary interest of Southern politicians--and consequently the underlying cause of the South's desire to seek independence and state rights.
http://members.tripod.com/~greatamer...ry/gr02013.htm

History is never simple.

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Which was run by Nazis.

Sorry, I don't buy it. I'm not saying each individual German soldier and sailor was evil, but they were fighting balls to the wall to advance the goals of a murderous, evil system. I equate it to the South, where Confederate soldiers were willing pawns in defence of slavery.

When Lee was asked if he would command the Union forces he said he wouldn't abandon his country, Virginia. Do you think Robert E. Lee was fighting for slavery?
Or, as he stated, his country? This is the great lie of our civil war that it was about slavery. Lincoln said:
My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

Remember TAK's paraphrase some time back?

That being said I can see how the average German soldier could answer the call to duty without supporting or even condoning the NAZI party or what it did during WWII.