The "Myth" about torpedo depth settings. - Page 3

Target · 08-14-07, 09:40 PM

If they hard coded the torps to use only magnetic contacts until June 43 the devs could be using this to enforce US Submarine doctrine which dogmatically stated that there wasn't anything wrong with the magnetic contacts and they should be used for every shot. After a certain date (can't remeber if it really was June 43) the Admirals had to finally admit to the faults of the magnetic detonator and recinded the order that captains use magnetic contacts exclusively. After which time the sub skippers were free to use their own discretion on which type of detonator to use. That's what happens when an Admiral has a pet project.
It sounds like its a realism feature forced upon the player to follow the historical doctrine of the US Submarine Force.

Frederf · 08-15-07, 07:08 AM

The Mk14 goes through at least two iterations during the war in game. Are these torpedoes labeled identically? Wouldn't it be stupid if they were impossible to tell apart in the GUI?

AkbarGulag · 08-15-07, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frederf

The Mk14 goes through at least two iterations during the war in game. Are these torpedoes labeled identically? Wouldn't it be stupid if they were impossible to tell apart in the GUI?

Im still in 1942 ^^ I'm guessing they look the same though, as they are basically the same thing, but with slightly different properties after June 1943 by the sounds of it.

Der Teddy Bar · 08-16-07, 04:49 AM

A lot of what I have written is known and may have been mentioned here already, but due to time constraints I have done most of this offline.

For a torpedo to damage the ship’s zones there are some requirements that it must be meet first, only then will the torpedo damage the ship and/or zones.

A torpedo can apply damage to a ship via a impact detonation or a magnetic detonation.

For an impact detonation the torpedoes armour piercing value is 100; as no zone has the armour specified above 100 it will always be damage.

For a magnetic detonation the torpedoes armour piercing is not applied. Instead the total HP of the torpedo must be greater than the zones.cfg’s “Armor Level Factor” X armour, only then will it defeat the armour and cause damage to the ship’s zone.

Most zones have an armour of -1, this signifies that the zones armour value is that of the ship, which for say the NKSSS_Kasagisan that would be 15.

For a magnetic detonation to damage the NKSSS_Kasagisan’s zones then the total HP arriving at the zone would need to be 4 x 15 or 60HP.

Note that the depth charge also has the same rules against the submarine as the magnetic detonation of a torpedo.

The blast radius for a torpedo has a minimum and maximum value. The minimum value is the minimum damage radius always and in addition where 100% of the torpedoes HP will be applied. The maximum blast radius of a torpedo is a random number between the minimum and the maximum blast radius, at the maximum blast radius the torpedo’s HP is 0.

The HP from a magnetic detonation decreases in value from the minimum blast radius until it reaches 0 at the maximum blast radius.

The keel zone in itself does not break the ships back.

Once a zone starts to flood it will to 100%, always. That is, once a zone has had more HP damage than the value of HitPoints * Critic Flotation / 100 then it will always flood to 100%.

For example, if we set the HitPoints for a zone to 400 and Critic Flotation to 0.1 (10%), then once 41HP damage had been done then the zone will flood to 100%. But it will take a very long time as the flood rate is determined by the % of damage against the FloodingTime value.

Though this example was done for a deck gun shell the principle of wether a zone is damaged is still the same.
We have 2 zones that are 20m long x 10m high x 3m deep which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ‘hit’ from one side.

The armour value on Zone 1 is set to 50 so that no 4” shell, even at maximum HP will cause any damage.

The armour value on Zone 2 is set to 15 so that any hit from 4” shell, even a minimum HP will cause damage.

The blast radius for the 4” shell is set to Min 2m, Max 10m, the actual shell hit/s are HP 25 & Blast Radius of 10 metres.

The hits…
When the shell hits Zone 1 – The shell hits to Zone 1 result in no damage to Zone 1 or Zone 2 as the armour value had not been defeated.

When the shell hits Zone 2 – The shell hits to Zone 2 result in damage to Zone 2 as the armour has been defeated; BUT the armour only gets checked once and because Zone 2 is within the damage radius Zone 2 has now been damaged!

The magnetic trigger is configured to be activated within 2 metres of the keel.

The magnetic pistol is disabled from 06/01/1943 as was historically correct. I was under the impression that the magnetic detonator was withdrawn totally and it’s use was not at the captain’s discretion?

I hope this helps.

Redwine · 08-16-07, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

I hope this helps.

Many thanks Teddy !

SH IV is a little strange, the sim do noit reacts always to changes made on files, many entries are dead entries. Some changes made on one ships reacts on another kind of ship. In example Fuso and Kongo seems to take data from another place as the remains BBs.

We have two main problems with SH IV here... wich makes the adjust of torps a little confuse, because you adjust well the torps for some kind of ship, but those settings do not works fine for others, then when you want to tewek those ships, you found there are anoying issues.

1]
The bow for DDs was done extremelly armored in V1.3, you can hit 6 or more times a Fubuki or Shiratsuyu in the bow and nothing happens, it iseem to be a BB bow.

I think so they are taking data from a wrong place.

Plus all DDs are so strong, but if you made them more weak, then, Fuso and Kongo become more weak too... at a level you can sink a 38000Tn BB with a single torp, but need 2 or 3 for a DD.

If you made the BBs strongest, it reacts on all them except on Fuso and Kongo wich non sense.

2]
When a DD ram on your scope, it explodes and sinks, you have not damage at all.

It is easy to solve... i solved it in my present files, but sadly it have a consecuence, the DDs become more strong even, and they are so string yet...

This facts made a little strong to reach a good torpedo setting balance....

AkbarGulag · 08-16-07, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

I hope this helps.

Absolutely. Thanks for your time mate, it is greatly appreciated. I would comment, but unfortuantely I know nothing :p (or at least a little more than nothing after reading this thread). SH4 is starting to expose her warts.

SteamWake · 08-16-07, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

The magnetic trigger is configured to be activated within 2 metres of the keel.

The magnetic pistol is disabled from 06/01/1943 as was historically correct. I was under the impression that the magnetic detonator was withdrawn totally and it’s use was not at the captain’s discretion?

I hope this helps.

From what I understand the detonators are set to impact only after a certin date and changing the selector switch does nothing. They may be set to trigger within 2 meters of the keel, problem is you cant turn the damn thing on.

Der Teddy Bar · 08-17-07, 02:08 AM

Redwine,
I presume that you are referring to the damage zones and the way that the damage zones are re-used in many ships, often not even of the same class. This practice made the creation of the 1st NYGM Ship Damage Mod a constant struggle and never ending trade off, of course that was back in the olden days before I was able to edit the ship zones.

With regards to the Fubuki & the Shiratsuyu the reason that they can take hits in the bow without sinking is because the 1st zone/s, the FlotabilityGeneric, is situated so far back.

On the Fubuki the zone starts at the rear of the forward gun, or to be more precise, at the 8 rail back from the bow.

On the Shiratsuyu the zone starts in front of the forward gun, or to be more precise, between the 6th and 7th rail back from the bow.

The battleships, such as Fuso and Kongo use the FlotabilityGenB for all the main zones from the bow to the stern with the addition of the engine, fuel etc.

Der Teddy Bar · 08-17-07, 02:16 AM

[quote=SteamWake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

The magnetic trigger is configured to be activated within 2 metres of the keel.

The magnetic pistol is disabled from 06/01/1943 as was historically correct. I was under the impression that the magnetic detonator was withdrawn totally and it’s use was not at the captain’s discretion?

I hope this helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

From what I understand the detonators are set to impact only after a certin date and changing the selector switch does nothing.

Correct, the magnetic pistol is disabled in the SIM file.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

They may be set to trigger within 2 meters of the keel, problem is you cant turn the damn thing on.

My knowledge of the pacific campaign is limited, but I was under the impression that the magnetic trigger had been withdrawn from service around mid 1943 and that the submarine's did not get them at all. If so, then I fail to see any issue.

Ducimus · 08-17-07, 06:39 PM

If DTB ever comes out with a SH4 version of NYGM, I think ill just retire and use it instead... err wait a minute, im retiring anyway. Ok, so id use his mod regardless. lol.

Redwine · 08-18-07, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Redwine,
I presume that you are referring to the damage zones and the way that the damage zones are re-used in many ships, often not even of the same class. This practice made the creation of the 1st NYGM Ship Damage Mod a constant struggle and never ending trade off, of course that was back in the olden days before I was able to edit the ship zones.

With regards to the Fubuki & the Shiratsuyu the reason that they can take hits in the bow without sinking is because the 1st zone/s, the FlotabilityGeneric, is situated so far back.

On the Fubuki the zone starts at the rear of the forward gun, or to be more precise, at the 8 rail back from the bow.

On the Shiratsuyu the zone starts in front of the forward gun, or to be more precise, between the 6th and 7th rail back from the bow.

The battleships, such as Fuso and Kongo use the FlotabilityGenB for all the main zones from the bow to the stern with the addition of the engine, fuel etc.

Many thanks Teddy... i tweaked the values for those zones yet.
But any way, it seems the torpedo damage radious is not enough to reach the first bow zones into a direct frontal impact.
Plus i reduced my damage radius, to make smaller holes and to avoid the damage to spread too much to adyacent compartements and be consumed partially by the thershold penetration.

Sadly to move those zones more forward is a 3D job out of my skills.

08-14-07, 09:40 PM	#31
Target Seaman Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 35 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If they hard coded the torps to use only magnetic contacts until June 43 the devs could be using this to enforce US Submarine doctrine which dogmatically stated that there wasn't anything wrong with the magnetic contacts and they should be used for every shot. After a certain date (can't remeber if it really was June 43) the Admirals had to finally admit to the faults of the magnetic detonator and recinded the order that captains use magnetic contacts exclusively. After which time the sub skippers were free to use their own discretion on which type of detonator to use. That's what happens when an Admiral has a pet project. It sounds like its a realism feature forced upon the player to follow the historical doctrine of the US Submarine Force.

08-15-07, 07:08 AM	#32
Frederf Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 665 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 1	The Mk14 goes through at least two iterations during the war in game. Are these torpedoes labeled identically? Wouldn't it be stupid if they were impossible to tell apart in the GUI?

08-16-07, 04:49 AM	#34
Der Teddy Bar Blade Master Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,388 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	A lot of what I have written is known and may have been mentioned here already, but due to time constraints I have done most of this offline. For a torpedo to damage the ship’s zones there are some requirements that it must be meet first, only then will the torpedo damage the ship and/or zones. A torpedo can apply damage to a ship via a impact detonation or a magnetic detonation. For an impact detonation the torpedoes armour piercing value is 100; as no zone has the armour specified above 100 it will always be damage. For a magnetic detonation the torpedoes armour piercing is not applied. Instead the total HP of the torpedo must be greater than the zones.cfg’s “Armor Level Factor” X armour, only then will it defeat the armour and cause damage to the ship’s zone. Most zones have an armour of -1, this signifies that the zones armour value is that of the ship, which for say the NKSSS_Kasagisan that would be 15. For a magnetic detonation to damage the NKSSS_Kasagisan’s zones then the total HP arriving at the zone would need to be 4 x 15 or 60HP. Note that the depth charge also has the same rules against the submarine as the magnetic detonation of a torpedo. The blast radius for a torpedo has a minimum and maximum value. The minimum value is the minimum damage radius always and in addition where 100% of the torpedoes HP will be applied. The maximum blast radius of a torpedo is a random number between the minimum and the maximum blast radius, at the maximum blast radius the torpedo’s HP is 0. The HP from a magnetic detonation decreases in value from the minimum blast radius until it reaches 0 at the maximum blast radius. The keel zone in itself does not break the ships back. Once a zone starts to flood it will to 100%, always. That is, once a zone has had more HP damage than the value of HitPoints * Critic Flotation / 100 then it will always flood to 100%. For example, if we set the HitPoints for a zone to 400 and Critic Flotation to 0.1 (10%), then once 41HP damage had been done then the zone will flood to 100%. But it will take a very long time as the flood rate is determined by the % of damage against the FloodingTime value. Though this example was done for a deck gun shell the principle of wether a zone is damaged is still the same. We have 2 zones that are 20m long x 10m high x 3m deep which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ‘hit’ from one side. The armour value on Zone 1 is set to 50 so that no 4” shell, even at maximum HP will cause any damage. The armour value on Zone 2 is set to 15 so that any hit from 4” shell, even a minimum HP will cause damage. The blast radius for the 4” shell is set to Min 2m, Max 10m, the actual shell hit/s are HP 25 & Blast Radius of 10 metres. The hits… When the shell hits Zone 1 – The shell hits to Zone 1 result in no damage to Zone 1 or Zone 2 as the armour value had not been defeated. When the shell hits Zone 2 – The shell hits to Zone 2 result in damage to Zone 2 as the armour has been defeated; BUT the armour only gets checked once and because Zone 2 is within the damage radius Zone 2 has now been damaged! The magnetic trigger is configured to be activated within 2 metres of the keel. The magnetic pistol is disabled from 06/01/1943 as was historically correct. I was under the impression that the magnetic detonator was withdrawn totally and it’s use was not at the captain’s discretion? I hope this helps.

08-17-07, 02:08 AM	#38
Der Teddy Bar Blade Master Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,388 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Redwine, I presume that you are referring to the damage zones and the way that the damage zones are re-used in many ships, often not even of the same class. This practice made the creation of the 1st NYGM Ship Damage Mod a constant struggle and never ending trade off, of course that was back in the olden days before I was able to edit the ship zones. With regards to the Fubuki & the Shiratsuyu the reason that they can take hits in the bow without sinking is because the 1st zone/s, the FlotabilityGeneric, is situated so far back. On the Fubuki the zone starts at the rear of the forward gun, or to be more precise, at the 8 rail back from the bow. On the Shiratsuyu the zone starts in front of the forward gun, or to be more precise, between the 6th and 7th rail back from the bow. The battleships, such as Fuso and Kongo use the FlotabilityGenB for all the main zones from the bow to the stern with the addition of the engine, fuel etc.

08-17-07, 06:39 PM	#40
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	If DTB ever comes out with a SH4 version of NYGM, I think ill just retire and use it instead... err wait a minute, im retiring anyway. Ok, so id use his mod regardless. lol.