Sacred Relics, or distractions?

[kiwi_2005]

What is this pledge sorry, is it you have to stop in your tracks & listen to the american athem?

We got rid of God save NZ athem and all that junk from our schools years ago.

The only time we do a pledge thingy is before a major sporting match - like rugby.

[August]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Rest in peace, Red Skelton.

Good night and G-d bless!

Red Skelton was a very wise man.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

What is this pledge sorry, is it you have to stop in your tracks & listen to the american athem?

We got rid of God save NZ athem and all that junk from our schools years ago.

The only time we do a pledge thingy is before a major sporting match - like rugby.

Damm right! The proper place for nationalism is in the sporting field and not schools!

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

Aren't these things just symbols for a bigger ideal? If I don't feel like pledging my alligence to a piece of cloth with stars and stripes every single morning, why am I labeled anti-American?

Question A: Yes.

Question B: This one I don't have a real answer for since each individuals' reasons may be different, but the short and general assumption they make is that you aren't on "their side."

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

I was late for class one day, and very worried about missing some instruction on a subject I have trouble with. The Pledge was on the loudspeaker, but I didn't pay much attention, I had bigger fish to fry. However, as I was walking at full speed, a large teacher who had planted herself in the middle of the Hall yelled "STOP" at me. Confused, I did. She wouldnt speak until the Pledge was over, and then I was taken to the front office and made to sit, missing the entire class because I was listening to a woman call me a commie in front of the entire administration.
(I failed the exam, too. Algebra sucks.)

More importantly: Did you respond? If you did, what did you say? If not, why didn't you? And if you could respond now, what would you say?

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

What I gathered from that was, the American dream is to stand, wasting time I could be using for more valuable things (like school) reciting the same words every day that I don't mean.

I understand though, that it goes both ways. If I burn the flag, shouting anti-American slurs, I'm being a bitch. But if my flag falls into a fire while I'm burning leaves, why should I even feel bad? It's the same with a bible. If I rip the pages out, speaking in tongues, yeah I might be posessed. But if I leave it in the car, should some religious nut key my car and post a note about my actions being worship to the devil?

Does anybody feel that way? Or am I really a devil posessed communist? Can I support an ideal without worshipping something that's material?

No you're not a communist (as far as I know), and you can support an ideal without "worshipping" a material object (something that I'd object to doing). For example: I recognize that it is the Bill of Rights that has guaranteed me the freedoms I exercise today (well, what's left of them that is), not a Red, White, and Blue flag.


What I seem to find in people like your teacher, is that they tend to have a deep-seated respect for the flag but don't fully understand what it is that has guaranteed them their freedoms (aka. blind patriotism).


I have alot of respect for the flag and what it represents, but I don't swear my allegiance to it (the flag being a piece of cloth), to the government (being corrupted as it is now), or to other people (who are fallible and make mistakes). So my position is that I treat the flag with the respect and dignity it has earned, but I'm not going to pledge my allegiance to it.


When I see a foreigner burn our flag, I make little note of it because that foreigner is my enemy and is against the fredoms I enjoy. What I don't understand is how someone who lives here in the United States can drag the flag on the street, burn it, call our soldiers "baby-killers", and still sleep soundly in a nation they consider their enemy. It also boggles the mind how the same people denigrate the same freedoms they currently enjoy (the Bill of Rights) but refuse to emigrate to what they would consider "greener pastures."


The same would apply for religion. I don't care what someone outside of my religion thinks of it, because my religion applies to me and those in my religious community. A debate and exchange of ideas I can understand, but baseless vilification is something I don't understand.

Hope this helps.

[Frau_Phillips]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

More importantly: Did you respond? If you did, what did you say? If not, why didn't you? And if you could respond now, what would you say?

While I with the patriotic teacher, I did not respond. It wouldn't have done any good. When I was before a panel of administrators I calmly explained my reasoning, and was then let go with a stern warning, "Respect my flag, or find another one." which I can only assume to mean, "Get out of this country."

I loathe the Bible Belt...

EDIT-

Now this I dont condone.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/03/2...-death-chants/

I may be upset with the administration, I may question the morals of America today, but this just makes me sick to my stomach.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Letum

Damm right! The proper place for nationalism is in the sporting field and not schools!

Damn wrong! The proper place for teaching your children the rights and benefits of the country they live in (assuming we're not talking about N. Korea or Zimbabwe) and the importance to upholding the principles and guidelines which the country was founded on and should continue to stand for is in school and from an early age.

[Skybird]

Teaching the history and the reasons for historic events, and teaching the basic laws and values of a nation, is one thing. Not allowing questions about them, excluding them from critical analysis in favour of parroting slogans, and conditioning pupils by demanding obedience to these rules by installing blind fetishism - all this is something different.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Teaching the history and the reasons for historic events, and teaching the basic laws and values of a nation, is one thing. Not allowing questions about them, excluding them from critical analysis in favour of parroting slogans, and conditioning pupils by demanding obedience to these rules by installing blind fetishism - all this is something different.

I never said otherwise. I refer to the history and the potential of the US - not of its perfection. But children need to be taught how much there is to appreciate if they wish to someday uphold and perfect it even further, rather than letting it fall into disrepair out of familiarity.

[Skybird]

I did not mean you in special, but the whole thread in general, AL.

[TteFAboB]

What grade are we talking about here?

On the U-571 thread Frau Phillips mentioned that her colleagues are mind-numbed teenagers. That may have something to do with it. I don't see how mind-numbed teenagers would succeed in meeteing Skybird's requirement for critical analysis.

[Sailor Steve]

Funny thing; I just read a book on the history of the 'pledge' awhile back. Originally it was much shorter: "I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". That was 1892.

In 1923 "my" was changed to "the", and "of the United States" was added. "Of America was added a year later.

Today's ultraconservatives get upset when liberals complain about the "Under God" part, without realizing that was added by congress in 1954.

Here's a site about some of it:
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

I agree, it sounds like a loyalty oath required by a totalitarian country.

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

While I with the patriotic teacher, I did not respond. It wouldn't have done any good. When I was before a panel of administrators I calmly explained my reasoning, and was then let go with a stern warning, "Respect my flag, or find another one." which I can only assume to mean, "Get out of this country."

I loathe the Bible Belt...

They went overboard on this one, and they've obviously gone the wrong way about doing it. If they merely want you to show respect for the flag, then they should've aksed/instructed so in a more calm and courteous manner, but they didn't. That's all there really is to it.

Originally Posted by Frau_Philips

EDIT-

Now this I dont condone.
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/03/2...-death-chants/

I may be upset with the administration, I may question the morals of America today, but this just makes me sick to my stomach.

These sort of people are not my friends, nor are they my equals, and they're no better than a hostile enemy that is intent on my destruction.

[Happy Times]

What breeds these anarcho-communists?? Europe has a good number of them too. They look and sound the same everywhere, weird subculture.

[Yahoshua]

Partly from peer pressure.
Partly from brainwashing.
Partly from vain desire for perfection while ignoring the failures of past attempts (which I would define as insanity since they attempt to repeat the same experiment while expecting different results).
Partly because it is considered "cool" and "trendy" to be anti-(insert here)

Worst of all is that they actually believe their ideology to be true.

[perisher]

I have never understood this American thing about not letting the flag touch the ground and burning it if it gets dirty. Why can't you wash it?

I'm being serious, I was a signalman in the Royal Navy and I spent a lot of time washing dirty flags. I just can't see what is so bad about it touching the ground.

In Britain, Colours are lowerd to the ground as a salute to the Monarch, and, as Army Regimental Colours cost a fortune, because of all the gold thread, burning is too expensive an option.