Can anyone explain to me why they're not depressed by games that always end in death?

[rcocean]

Just for historical accuracy. There were about 1600 pacific patrols and about 40 subs were sunk by Japanese ASW. So thats about 1 in 40 as oppossed to 1 in 50. But you're right, about 10 percent of the Sub commanders ended up being KIA or POW.

This is a GAME. So there is more action, more sinkings, and more deaths than histroically accurate. In 1600 patrols, US subs sighted 8000 ships, attacked 4000 and sunk about 1500.

IRL, if did 5 patrols you probably attacked 13 ships and sunk 4 or 5. In the game you can do that in 1 patrol.

Whats amazing is how many close calls US subs had despite the so-called weak Japanese ASW. Read some of the patrol reports and you can see all the close calls, lucky escapes, and the razor thin margin between survivial and being sunk. Subs miss mines by inches, and again and again if the lookouts had been lax or the commander had made the wrong split second decision the sub would have been lost.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by rcocean

This is a GAME. So there is more action, more sinkings, and more deaths than histroically accurate.

This is also a SIMULATION so (even though it's undoubtedly also a GAME) there shouldn't be more action, more sinkings, and more deaths than historically accurate. It can be both a game and a simulation, and the fact that it's one does not preclude it from being the other.

[GnarPow]

I think you need a vacation, Please shut off the computer and give it to someone you can trust who will promise not to give it to your for a specified amount of time and counseling

What do you call ***Playing SH4***? Do you tell your family your hopping into your sub now and dont call you for 2 months? Do you play at 1x time compression and never above that? because your obviously not playing it like a simulation if time is going by faster than what it does in reality. Everything must be EXACTLY like reality right? so disable time compression you cheating bastard! Your cheating yourself out of 100% simulation and that is just wrong, why play if your just going to cheat yourself out of what you payed good $$ for? Also on that note dont ever watch a replay either because there is no way to record the actually happenings from any angle in real life, so that is fake as well...

Doesnt sound like much fun, does it? didnt think so

[Beery]

Originally Posted by GnarPow

I think you need a vacation, Please shut off the computer and give it to someone you can trust who will promise not to give it to your for a specified amount of time and counseling

The interesting thing is I've maintained a respectful tone throughout this thread. It was a simple question. But some of the responses have been downright rude. Now I'm wondering what it is about this line of questioning that makes some people behave this way?

As for your argument, realism is not the same as reality. For realism only the things in the sim have to be realistic, NOT the stuff outside the sim. Time compression is not unrealistic if the simulated crew of the sub are experiencing time at 1:1, and they are.

[kakemann]

Originally Posted by Beery

The interesting thing is I've maintained a respectful tone throughout this thread. It was a simple question. But some of the responses have been downright rude. Now I'm wondering what it is about this line of questioning that makes some people behave this way?

Beery - it's no point. This guy just wants to argue for no reason!
Some people just enjoy teasing or being rude.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Beery

The interesting thing is I've maintained a respectful tone throughout this thread. It was a simple question. But some of the responses have been downright rude. Now I'm wondering what it is about this line of questioning that makes some people behave this way?

Yeah, unfortunately, some of the wider web jerk-ness gets in here from time to time.

[GnarPow]

Originally Posted by Beery

The interesting thing is I've maintained a respectful tone throughout this thread. It was a simple question. But some of the responses have been downright rude. Now I'm wondering what it is about this line of questioning that makes some people behave this way?

As for your argument, realism is not the same as reality. For realism only the things in the sim have to be realistic, NOT the stuff outside the sim. Time compression is not unrealistic if the simulated crew of the sub are experiencing time at 1:1, and they are.

Guy is saying he is DEPRESSED over a video game... obviously he needs a little time away if that is an issue... Games are for fun, who cares if you live or die... IT IS A GAME

just like calbeck said, its all zeroes and ones

How am i being a jerk by saying he needs to put his computer down for a minute? lighten up

[perisher]

Originally Posted by Beery

Time compression is not unrealistic ...

Indeed it is not. IRL I work in railway operations, we use simulators for training. We usually run these at 8 x real life, it means we can achieve more in the time available, if we have to think a little faster than in RL that's probably a good thing and we get 8 times as many tea breaks. It still reflects reality.

[swash]

When I leave base on a patrol, I have every intention of returning the boat and crew.

If I'm detected by an escort before getting into attack position on a convoy, my immediate goal changes from attack to evade, even if it means letting the convoy slip by so my boat isn't destroyed.

Everyone plays the program (game or sim, you decide) different, just like how much salt someone prefers on their potatoes or how well done they want their steak.

I made the mistake of being in a hurry to get into a harbor to photograph some ships, slipped inside the destroyer patrol, running deep and silent and went to x32 time compression

swish, swish, swish.... BOOM BOOM

My mistake for rushing the game at TC. On the PC we can just load the last saved game and learn from the mistake to not do it again. The only depressing thing is realizing you didn't save

[Calbeck]

What's to be depressed about? This is all zeroes and ones.

Now, I DO respect the deaths of the very real people who fought and sacrificed in the Second World War. And IF my men and boat were real I would care deeply about their loss.

But this is zeroes and ones, and the emotional impact revolves around one's own personal skill in managing assets and developing/executing tactics. This is no more "bloody" than a game of chess, and the attraction has a similar basis.

[Chock]

Are there any statistics on how US subs were lost?
I mean, how many to air attack?, how many to depth charge?, how many to catastrophic equipment failure?

DiveMonkey, there are a few sites with this info, here is one of the more concise ones:

http://www.bluejacket.com/ww2_ship_loss3.html

[DiveMonkey]

Originally Posted by Chock

DiveMonkey, there are a few sites with this info, here is one of the more concise ones:

http://www.bluejacket.com/ww2_ship_loss3.html

Good find, thanks

Not a single reported sinking by aircraft. Most not reported, simply, failed to return. A couple accidental sinking's, mechanical failures...I get the feeling this was a leading cause of attrition...Maybe 1.3 will make some improvements in damage model.

[U-Bones]

Simple. If it were real or realistic it would be both boring and horrifying.

Thankfully, it is a game.

I think I enjoy it, but of course I am really in denial, and need my subjective perception of reality tweaked.

[MaxT.dk]

Originally Posted by Beery

It seems to me that many simulation type games are often not very good simulations because they all overstate the chances of getting killed by a lot. SH4 is a good example. In reality the US submarine service had about 250 subs and each sub commander did around ten patrols. That's 2500 patrols. Submarines were lost in only 50 of those patrols. That means that the actual chances of a sub being sunk were one in 50 patrols. Now the average commander did only about five patrols, so his chances of getting killed during his tenure as a sub commander were around one in ten.

In SH4, in my experience, the chance of the player's sub being sunk is about one in every 5 patrols - that's close to a 100% chance of getting killed during a career.

10% mortality rate (in reality) versus close to 100% (in the sim) - there's a huge disconnect there.

I've never understood why players seem so willing to accept this. When I play a sub game I would prefer to watch my crew grow and then survive to retire, just as nine out of ten sub commanders did. But with the game as it is in the stock version it's virtually impossible to do that.

I've heard the argument about excitement - that players want to have a lot of stuff happening on patrol - lots of danger, close escapes, depth charges, torpedo impacts, sonar pings, tenacious destroyers etc., but in my view all that stuff is only fun if it's realistic, and all too often it's not. Plus there's the fact that endless excitement ends up in death, and death is boring and depressing. If all careers are virtually guaranteed to end in death it seems to me that all careers become an exercise in futility.

Don't other players find this depressing, as I do? Don't other players ever think that it would be nice to survive a career? Why aren't other players up in arms about this issue?

I'm with you man!

That's why my sub is equipped with nuclear Deck Gun ammo and Torpedoes that sink a ship from the 1st hit. Go me!
I love my crew too much to let them sink. What about their kids and wives? No way man! They gotta go back and tell all those stories about the "Good ol' days" to their kids, grandchildren etc!

YAAAAAAAAARRR!