Lets's learn something from SH3.... - Page 3

Captain Krunch · 03-05-07, 03:51 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that some people, such as myself, have not played SH2 or SH3, so the leap from the original Silent Hunter to SH4 will be very dramatic. In fact, when I see the videos and screenshots of SH4, I start to drool because it's so much better than SH1. I think it's safe to say that, for *myself*, I have no doubt that I'll be very, very pleased with SH4 - but I guess I can understand why those of you who played SH2/3 may not have as large a positive reaction to SH4.

But are you guys creating expectations that are just too large to be met by anyone? Is it logical to do so? Is SH4 a revolutionary advance, or an evolutionary one? I say it's the latter.

Think about it for a moment. Over the years, many sims came out that were pretty good, so "sequels" were released that occured in another theater, but pretty much used the same engine as the original. Some early examples are Aces of the Pacific/Aces Over Europe and X-Wing/TIE Fighter. These sequels were not expansions, but stand-alone games, yet the technical improvements were fairly minor. The way I see it, SH4 has been produced in a similar fashion. It doesn't advance the genre technically, but it does give the customer a different theater, as well as some improvements over the previous version. If this is kept in mind, then perhaps the expecations won't be as high, thus you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Barkhorn1x · 03-05-07, 04:08 PM

Your going from SHI to SHIV?!?!

My god - that's like going from a Holland class boat to a Balao w/ NOTHING in between. :hmm:

Damn. Enjoy the air conditioning and the ice-cream is all I can say.

Barkhorn.

THE_MASK · 03-05-07, 04:48 PM

Lets not kill the chicken before it lays the golden egg .

KiwiVenge · 03-06-07, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sober

Lets not kill the chicken before it lays the golden egg .

No one is saying we should kill the chicken at any point.
They are just saying "Don't count your chickens before they hatch"

Fat Bhoy Tim · 03-06-07, 02:41 PM

I feel robbed. I'm still waiting for the lesson learnt.

flintlock · 03-06-07, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

modders, who they've never heard of, inspire game developers to build better games for them.

With all due respect, I would suggest that you may have this a little backwards: modders are inspired by the games which developers have designed and engineered. That is not to take away from quality work which some modders produce. I also agree that there may be ideas from specific mods that may influence an area of a developers design. Without the original design of the game however, there wouldn't be a whole lot to modify.

Corsair · 03-07-07, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintlock

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDK1044

modders, who they've never heard of, inspire game developers to build better games for them.

With all due respect, I would suggest that you may have this a little backwards: modders are inspired by the games which developers have designed and engineered. That is not to take away from quality work which some modders produce. I also agree that there may be ideas from specific mods that may influence an area of a developers design. Without the original design of the game however, there wouldn't be a whole lot to modify.

On the other hand, without the modding communities some games which have lasted for years (and sold many copies in the process) would have had a short lifetime (and a lot less sales)

Steeltrap · 03-07-07, 11:39 AM

The thing I will be most interested to see is how they have addressed the issues that seem to have dogged every sub sim ever produced: AI and sensor performance.

Remember SHII (shudder....)? Out of the box and the AI found you, always hit with their first shot if you were detected on the surface (including the gunnery from merchants, and that's sooo ridiculous), or always dumped DCs right on you with the correct depth setting.

SHIII....similar issues. Even now the problem of realistic detection ranges/methods required a LOT of effort from our modders (and 3 cheers for them!). As for hiding on the sea floor, effect of debris and turbulence from previous DC attacks, thermal layers (admittedly more rare in Atlantic theatre, but COMMON in Pacific) etc....forget it!

So, that's what I want to see. Submarines had a HUGE advantage over surface vessels in their ability to detect targets while themselves remaining hidden. They regularly attacked on the surface and escaped without even being seen at all. Those things, however, were NEVER simulated properly without extensive modding, and even that only got so far due to hard-coded issues.

Get THAT right, and the rest is pretty simple in comparison.....

Subnuts · 03-07-07, 12:01 PM

Well, here's a lesson to be learned from Silent Hunter One. Don't stay on the surface in an S-boat in broad daylight 20 miles away from a port where naval traffic regularly steams through. Also, evade the destroyers, rather than closing with them head-on to 800 yards and trying to torpedo them. Sorry, I just finished my shortest S-boat career ever.

TDK1044 · 03-07-07, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

The thing I will be most interested to see is how they have addressed the issues that seem to have dogged every sub sim ever produced: AI and sensor performance.

Remember SHII (shudder....)? Out of the box and the AI found you, always hit with their first shot if you were detected on the surface (including the gunnery from merchants, and that's sooo ridiculous), or always dumped DCs right on you with the correct depth setting.

SHIII....similar issues. Even now the problem of realistic detection ranges/methods required a LOT of effort from our modders (and 3 cheers for them!). As for hiding on the sea floor, effect of debris and turbulence from previous DC attacks, thermal layers (admittedly more rare in Atlantic theatre, but COMMON in Pacific) etc....forget it!

So, that's what I want to see. Submarines had a HUGE advantage over surface vessels in their ability to detect targets while themselves remaining hidden. They regularly attacked on the surface and escaped without even being seen at all. Those things, however, were NEVER simulated properly without extensive modding, and even that only got so far due to hard-coded issues.

Get THAT right, and the rest is pretty simple in comparison.....

I think the AI issue will be as keenly debated in SH4 as it was in SH3. There will be those pointing out that the Japanese were not as good at detecting or attacking subs as the Allies were in the Atlantic and that should therefore be reflected in the game. Then there will be those who say that if you adhere to that, then attacking and escaping will be too easy.

fredbass · 03-07-07, 12:33 PM

I don't know how much the Sh4 Dev team has learned from the past, but I'm just a bit concerned at what I would consider is a relatively short amount of time that they were given to finish the initial release.

Time and resources are a factor which shouldn't be forgotten.

03-06-07, 02:41 PM	#35
Fat Bhoy Tim Watch Officer Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Abu Dhabi Posts: 338 Downloads: 46 Uploads: 0	I feel robbed. I'm still waiting for the lesson learnt. __________________ Some men are born great, some achieve greatness, and some will always be total gits.

03-07-07, 12:33 PM	#41
fredbass Ace of the Deep Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New Port Richey, Fl, USA Posts: 1,066 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I don't know how much the Sh4 Dev team has learned from the past, but I'm just a bit concerned at what I would consider is a relatively short amount of time that they were given to finish the initial release. Time and resources are a factor which shouldn't be forgotten. __________________

03-05-07, 03:51 PM	#31
Captain Krunch Mate Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 58 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Another thing to keep in mind is that some people, such as myself, have not played SH2 or SH3, so the leap from the original Silent Hunter to SH4 will be very dramatic. In fact, when I see the videos and screenshots of SH4, I start to drool because it's so much better than SH1. I think it's safe to say that, for myself, I have no doubt that I'll be very, very pleased with SH4 - but I guess I can understand why those of you who played SH2/3 may not have as large a positive reaction to SH4. But are you guys creating expectations that are just too large to be met by anyone? Is it logical to do so? Is SH4 a revolutionary advance, or an evolutionary one? I say it's the latter. Think about it for a moment. Over the years, many sims came out that were pretty good, so "sequels" were released that occured in another theater, but pretty much used the same engine as the original. Some early examples are Aces of the Pacific/Aces Over Europe and X-Wing/TIE Fighter. These sequels were not expansions, but stand-alone games, yet the technical improvements were fairly minor. The way I see it, SH4 has been produced in a similar fashion. It doesn't advance the genre technically, but it does give the customer a different theater, as well as some improvements over the previous version. If this is kept in mind, then perhaps the expecations won't be as high, thus you'll be pleasantly surprised.

03-05-07, 04:08 PM	#32
Barkhorn1x Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Davie, FL Grid DM 23 Posts: 544 Downloads: 60 Uploads: 0	Your going from SHI to SHIV?!?! My god - that's like going from a Holland class boat to a Balao w/ NOTHING in between. :hmm: Damn. Enjoy the air conditioning and the ice-cream is all I can say. Barkhorn.

03-05-07, 04:48 PM	#33
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	Lets not kill the chicken before it lays the golden egg .

03-07-07, 11:39 AM	#38
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	The thing I will be most interested to see is how they have addressed the issues that seem to have dogged every sub sim ever produced: AI and sensor performance. Remember SHII (shudder....)? Out of the box and the AI found you, always hit with their first shot if you were detected on the surface (including the gunnery from merchants, and that's sooo ridiculous), or always dumped DCs right on you with the correct depth setting. SHIII....similar issues. Even now the problem of realistic detection ranges/methods required a LOT of effort from our modders (and 3 cheers for them!). As for hiding on the sea floor, effect of debris and turbulence from previous DC attacks, thermal layers (admittedly more rare in Atlantic theatre, but COMMON in Pacific) etc....forget it! So, that's what I want to see. Submarines had a HUGE advantage over surface vessels in their ability to detect targets while themselves remaining hidden. They regularly attacked on the surface and escaped without even being seen at all. Those things, however, were NEVER simulated properly without extensive modding, and even that only got so far due to hard-coded issues. Get THAT right, and the rest is pretty simple in comparison.....

03-07-07, 12:01 PM	#39
Subnuts The Old Man Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,658 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Well, here's a lesson to be learned from Silent Hunter One. Don't stay on the surface in an S-boat in broad daylight 20 miles away from a port where naval traffic regularly steams through. Also, evade the destroyers, rather than closing with them head-on to 800 yards and trying to torpedo them. Sorry, I just finished my shortest S-boat career ever.