GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[GT182]

Excellent work Ducimus... as always!

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? [I can understand a Type I steam as it leaves bubbles and makes noise.] Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate.

[ref]

Originally Posted by GT182

Excellent work Ducimus... as always!

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? [I can understand a Type I steam as it leaves bubbles and makes noise.] Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate.

I'm not sure about how the game models it, but the high speed screws from a torpedo (either steam or electric) produces a high pitch sound that can be heard from a long distance, both for the pitch and the volume, don't forget that it's travelling at 28+ knots.

Ref

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by GT182

How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric?

I can't give you a positive answer on this. THeres alot of small things where it feels like SH3 is sort of cheating the player. Honestly i think the AI is sort of guided by the game to the general vacinity, and the AI's sensors take over from there. Of course this doesnt explain all the times when you launch a torpedo and the AI just doesnt know where the hell to look.

From my own experience what i do primarly after launching a torpedo is to not panic. Early war ill stay up top at periscope depth to watch the fun, and, as silent as i can allow, put the dive planes in normal dive, aim the boat towards the escort and drift downward. I typically wont increase speed unless i hear him speed up, he starts pinging, or gets VERY close. Remember, once you increase RPM's your basically unzipping your fly. Even if he gets very close, ill sometimes not crash dive depending on the escorts disposition. Just remaining calm and let the boat drift down maintaining a small profile. Im very rarely detected doing this, but it is something of a teeth clenching gamble at times. If your wrong about the escorts disposition to you, you just made a mistake. Likewise if you crash dive right away to get to saftey depths, you just made a mistake by saying " Here i am come get me!"

Late war is i different story, ill shoot my fish, then IMMEDIATLY start drifting downward to as silent as i can allow to get a head start before the fish impact. The trick is to find the right speed. Too fast and you unzip your fly. Too slow and your going to be a little bit too close to the surface. Its a balancing act, and its greatly dependant on the state of the sea.

Originally Posted by GT182

Excellent work Ducimus... as always!

Now a couple of questions. How does DD AI know where you are after a torpedo launch, especially if it's a Type II electric? [I can understand a Type I steam as it leaves bubbles and makes noise.] Is it from sound it makes or your sub they pick up on? I've seen that no matter how far away you are they always head to where the fish was fired from... be it 3000 meters, or 2200 meters as in you photos. And the speed of my sub is at 1 or 2kts... usually 1kt and "Silent Running". When I'm in position and ready to launch, it's always a Type II electric for the "surprise" effect, and it sure wakes 'em up in a hurry too. LOL

AVG... we already belong to the best club there is.... SubSim. Why start another? Just picking on ya mate.

You can actually hear your own fish if you duck into the sound room and put on ye old headphones (that is, go to the sound room and listen :p ).

Slowly manually move the bearing needle of the hydrophones and you can pick up the sounds of your torpedoes. You can even hear duds smack the sound of the hull; they made a low 'clunk' sound.

And yes, DDs and other escorts could hear your incoming fish, too.

During a U-Boat torpedo attack a sonarman picked up the distinctive hiss of an approaching fish. "I ran out on the bridge to prepare for an explosion. I looked over the side in time to see the torpedo streak on by about 10 feet away from the hull! An order had been given to stream FXR, and sure enough the torpedo headed for it and blew up well astern!" *
Rocky Schoenrock, Sonarman, USS Inch (DE-146)

*http://www.de220.com/Armament/Decoys/Decoys.htm

[Samwolf]

Good info on AI sensors in GWX. Thanks

[Tiny]

I don't really get why you have to be at 200m when waiting on a convoy, I made my 2nd attempt yesterday (GWX ofcourse) on a convoy on my ... now 7th patrol, July 1940. I lay myself at 70m and when the (what it sounded like) two destroyers infront of the convoy had passed at 160 degrees and 40 degress I went up to periscope depth. They didn't ping me at all...besides they don't ping all the time do they...or do they send out a ping once in a while or what?

What really pisses me off is that I ended up sinking 0!!!!!!!! ships

I saw Nelson Battleship in the convoy but way to far away so I saw I was perfectly lined up to pop a C3 cargo, or large cargo whatever they are called nowadays

Anyway unfortunantely I had my stern pointed to the center of the convoy so I tried to pick of a medium tanker with my stern torpedo. I shoot it away and ofcourse Bernard had loaded the stern full of steamers so a couple standing on the bow of a passenger/cargo doing that Titanic thing spotted my torp and screamed so loud the convoy went zigzagging...and my two electrical missed the C3!!!!!!!!

Yesterday I liked steamer torps in a noobsih way but now I hate them!!, can't see why I ever used them...

Then I went away with the external view to check if the steamer would hit anything and it would have hitted a flower corvette if that to wouldn't have detected it!!! grr.

Then when I came back to my sub I noticed I had only come down to 40m and I heard intensive pinging and a destroyer racing for me and I went and ordered vanziniger fahrt and luckily I escaped...but the other flower corvette above me pounded me for an hour with DC...but in the end I escaped without a scratch...thank god for deep seas.

Will do a 2nd attack this evening. And I shall sink the Nelson ! ARR!!!



ops this got into quiet a story...:hmm:

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Tiny

I don't really get why you have to be at 200m when waiting on a convoy,

Nobody said you had to do that when waiting for a convoy. Just stay off to the side of the lead escort and you'll be fine.

[DrMilton]

I still use old T-Is. They are the fastest out there and when used as the german doctrine instructed (at night time) will blow the victim quite a surprise.
The escorts won't see you if you stay quiet while they pass you by, no need to be so deep for that. To be sure go for silent running even when stationary with engines shut off.

[Mush Martin]

A destroyer is no match for a sub at battle depth in any game environment
or the real world all things being equal.
MM

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Originally Posted by DrMilton

The escorts won't see you if you stay quiet while they pass you by, no need to be so deep for that. To be sure go for silent running even when stationary with engines shut off.

Not in GWX, DrMilton, not any more... I know cause they hurt me bad all the times I hope to be undetected when submerged and silent. That simply doesn't work.

[Tobus]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

c.) Your position in relation to the escort. Looking back up at the picture of the aspect, you'll see a big semicircle around the destroyer. The area behind it, is its deafspot, or its baffeles. Its also deaf to anything DIRECTLY under it, at or around a radius of 10 meters. Depth charge attacks DO NOT mask your noise. Only when an escort is directly above you, or if you are directly behind an escort are you completely safe to use as many RPM's in your motors as your heart desires.

I have read in several books by both Kaleuns and U-hunters that DC's could render listening devices useless for sometimes 10 minutes. This is not modeled then?

[Tobus]

The AI's ability to hear you depends on a few things:

A.) The state of the sea.
If the sea is calm, sonar conditions are greatly improved. If the sea is rough, sonar conditions are craptastic to say the least, and for you, this is good news.

b.) Engine RPMS.
It's not your speed per say that the AI qeues in on. Its your engines RPMs. When setting your speed, use the interior free cam and take a close look at your engines RPMS. 100 RPMs is usually the maximum i would go in a silent running scenario.

c.) Your position in relation to the escort. Looking back up at the picture of the aspect, you'll see a big semicircle around the destroyer. The area behind it, is its deafspot, or its baffeles. Its also deaf to anything DIRECTLY under it, at or around a radius of 10 meters. Depth charge attacks DO NOT mask your noise. Only when an escort is directly above you, or if you are directly behind an escort are you completely safe to use as many RPM's in your motors as your heart desires.

I was reading a book, "" U-boat killer" by retired destroyer captain Donald Macintyre (http://www.uboat.net/books/reviews.html/title/260), in which he clearly states that hydrophones were not used anymore on British subhunters since the 1e world war. ASDIC was the only means of hunting down u-boots. So what's this with "hearing" subs due to their enginenoise and other noises like pumps, reloading and repairwork? It seems to me everything of sound IS modelled in SH3/GWX.

Can you clarify?

[joea]

Ahh tobus, they used both, or to use the modern terms "passive" and "active" sonar. ASDIC just provided a more accurate way of pinpointing the sub's location and depth. Hydrophones were ONLY passive, if you look at the same site, http://www.uboat.net/allies/technical/asdic.htm it says:

ASDIC in a passive role

The device could also be used to listen as well as pinging. The propeller noises of the U-boat would sometimes be heard as well as its operation of various machinery and its use of compressed air in the ballast tanks to change depths. This was not very usual as one of the standard German tactics, when located, was to dive deep, rig for silent running and hide beneath a thermal layer at speeds slow enough to eliminate any cavitation from the propellers.

Problem of course is many SH3 skippers are not as careful as their real-life counterparts in keeping quiet.

[Tobus]

Thanks Joea, that clears that up! Do you know anything about my remark about DC's messing up ASDIC'ing for 10 minutes?

[joea]

Originally Posted by Tobus

Thanks Joea, that clears that up! Do you know anything about my remark about DC's messing up ASDIC'ing for 10 minutes?

I read they have, but not in SH3 apparently. I think GWX did something to simulate DCs messing up the ASDIC but not sure.