Thinking Aloud About Tactics

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Palindromeria

in an ssn i would do that - keep firing and trying to run ahead for another attack until empty. but in lin san liu i feel quite overmatched/outclassed.

You don't necessarily need to run ahead. I just figured that if they're still in range, I might as well shoot. Since surface ships tend to move fast, I usually only have one opportunity to shoot in the KILO so I might as well make the most of it.

i dont like the way the game never detects a scope/masts.

I don't worry about it that much. Periscope detections are definitely possible in real life, but if you do everything smartly then it shouldn't happen that often. As I see it, it's really a pretty minor thing. Besides, if you just figure on what the radar horizon is for a 50' radar antenna against a 6' mast, radar doesn't give you a whole lot of range that sonar wouldn't give you under the right conditions. Also, it's effectiveness is conditioned on the mast being exposed in the first place, so when you figure that radar could only see about as far as the sonar could under the right conditions, and then figure on what the chance of the mast being exposed is, and then figure on where he's going to expose his periscope, the value of periscope detection is really sort of nebulous. If you can get one, it's great, but you won't always get it. Harpoon does mast detections. Every once in a while you get one. It's nice that it's there, but if it wasn't I wouldn't lose sleep.

I worry sometimes that gamers, in a quest to account for everything in minute detail fall into the trap of being "precisely wrong," and overcredit or undercredit things based on arbitrary assumptions of how they think things ought to be. The thing is, since few if any of the gamers have experience, "that looks about right," ends up saying more about what ordinary people THINK is going on in a sea battle than what really happens. That's not what makes it interesting to me, though.

Often times I am firing in to the formation simply hoping that i have focused on the cv (im using some random elements so the formation differs every time) im not using fast reload.

Go ahead. Use your periscope. It has my royal endorsement.

[Palindromeria]

<< You don't necessarily need to run ahead. I just figured that if they're still in range, I might as well shoot. Since surface ships tend to move fast, I usually only have one opportunity to shoot in the KILO so I might as well make the most of it. >>

well thats it in a nutshell.

in my mission getting in range is not a given.
it is in and of itself a small victory.
i have not been able to get anywhere as close as you have managed to.
i sometimes fail to get off an attack.
i often am firing from long range, and wouldnt be able to id tgts with peri anyway.
i often have to seriously deplete the battery to even get to the "long range" position.

if i was in a close position with a relatively full battery
im sure i would at least pessimistically consider a second salvo.
and i say pessimistically only because
whenever i am anything but extremely cautious in Lin San Liu, i get sunk.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Palindromeria

in my mission getting in range is not a given.

And it shouldn't be.

it is in and of itself a small victory.

Your ability to get within range is partly a gauge of your piloting ability (can you calculate things like CPA, and what not) but mostly it's just where your initial position falls within the limiting lines of approach of the formation, because the formation is so much faster than a KILO, it has the ability to effectively narrow down the set of points of origin from which a submarine could originate and get within torpedo range of at least one warship in the formation. That's important too, because it also dictates where a formation should concentrate the ships in it's ASW screen. That's how speed turns out to be a big advantage that surface vessels have over submarines. Speed effectively allows a surface ship to choose where a submarine might come from, and plan accordingly.

The theory behind it is presented in Koopman's "Search and Screening" I also outlined the essentials in the scenario notes to my NATO EXWAR Exercise scenario. This is actually a good example of how a geometry is important in scenario design. A real KILO captain would be able to tell in advance whether he could get within range of a strike group, just by doing some basic navigational calculations, and from that he would make the decision whether to pursue or not. He wouldn't go after a strike group if the possibility of getting in range didn't exist. He'd just call it in to his headquarters and they'd target the strike group for attack by something else. In this sense, a good KILO scenario starts from the assumption that there exists the possiblity of getting within range. Whether you do everything necessary to actually accomplish that is another question, but there ought to at least exist the possiblity.

i have not been able to get anywhere as close as you have managed to.

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't always get that close, but sometimes I do. It really depends a lot on luck. It also depends somewhat on my willingness to make a dash for it. Creeping around at 3-5 knots may make you very difficult to find, but it also makes it very unlikely you'll be able to get in range. I've also found that sometimes going slow actually makes you less stealthy. Being "stealthy" really means that the searcher's sensor coverage is small in comparison to the area he has to search. Going faster is one way to increase your stealth by increasing the area a searcher has to search in order to find you.

i sometimes fail to get off an attack.

As do I.

i often am firing from long range, and wouldnt be able to id tgts with peri anyway.
i often have to seriously deplete the battery to even get to the "long range" position.

If that's the case then you're probably coming in from a position that is highly offset from the formation's centerline. That's fine, so long as it's not so highly offset that the potential to get in range no longer exists. You still might not get in range, but if the scenario is designed so that your starting point is one from which the at least the possibility exists, then it was because of some combination of enemy action and poor decision making.

and i say pessimistically only because whenever i am anything but extremely cautious in Lin San Liu, i get sunk.

That's interesting because I think the Improved KILO might be a little overpowered in the game. Last night I surfaced in the middle of a CSG just to see if something was wrong because I was so worried that something would detect me and nothing had.

[Palindromeria]

i have a lot of respect for your knowlegde/opinions .
i agreed with your initial assesment. maybe i should have left it at that.
This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point,
so im just gonna go read a book.

regards

dave

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Palindromeria

This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point, so im just gonna go read a book.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by Palindromeria

i have a lot of respect for your knowlegde/opinions .
i agreed with your initial assesment. maybe i should have left it at that.
This is somehow feeling adversarial instead of constructive at this point,
so im just gonna go read a book.

regards

dave

Palindromeria, have you looked at the Powerpoint file that comes with the EXwar scenario? It tells you how to calculate those limiting lines of approach. (Although I would love it for SeaQueen to elaborate on it. Not everyone has that Koopman book) And it would have added to the constructive element in the critisism that you seek. Thinking about Mr. Spock (Vulcan) might help understanding what SeaQueen means. Logic. He says that al the time.

[XabbaRus]

SeaQueen what I would like to do is alter your NATOEXWAR to have a playable FFG. Thing is you locked the mission

Could you update it to include that as it would make a good Multiplayer game. Infact I challenge you to just that. You in your Kilo versus me in an FFG.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

SeaQueen what I would like to do is alter your NATOEXWAR to have a playable FFG. Thing is you locked the mission

I MUST RETAIN TOTAL CONTROL BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Could you update it to include that as it would make a good Multiplayer game..

You think? I've tossed around the idea of doing something similar, but with some CLF ships and FFGs.

Infact I challenge yu to just that. You in your Kilo versus me in an FFG
I keep thinking about a good MP game.

Awww... can I do the FFG? I have the hat and everything!

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Pisces

It tells you how to calculate those limiting lines of approach. (Although I would love it for SeaQueen to elaborate on it. Not everyone has that Koopman book) And it would have added to the constructive element in the critisism that you seek.

What else do you want to know? I tried to keep the scenario notes confined to the minimum necessary to explain why I did what I did. I figured if someone was that much of an ASW geek they either already knew what were looking at or else, would hunt the stuff down. The NATO EXWAR Exercise is pretty much the archetypical surface ship v. sub scenario, though, with different variations. That general geometry is how things work, just because of the kinematics of things.

Thinking about Mr. Spock (Vulcan) might help understanding what SeaQueen means. Logic. He says that al the time.

Wow... I'm the ASW Vulcan...

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I MUST RETAIN TOTAL CONTROL BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You think? I've tossed around the idea of doing something similar, but with some CLF ships and FFGs.

Awww... can I do the FFG? I have the hat and everything!

Ok you can have whatever you want

I think it would be fun. You on yahoo so it can be coordinated.

[Palindromeria]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Grumble... grumble... grumble...

I keep playing KILO scenarios. It's the same thing every time: approach a fast moving strike group and bag a high value unit (either a CVN or an LHD). I keep trying to wedge myself between the screens and the high value units, shoot, go deep, pop up and shoot some more. I'm beginning to think this is a bad tactic, because I get killed every time. The thing is, I can't think of a good reason why.

It seems like the only viable option is to actually avoid getting in front of anyone, come in from a far offset angle and shoot from behind. Anything else is suicide.

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I think the Improved KILO might be a little overpowered in the game. Last night I surfaced in the middle of a CSG just to see if something was wrong because I was so worried that something would detect me and nothing had..

I dont find these 2 statements to be logical, but rather a bit contradictory.
Aside from the fact that Seaqueens replies were now based on the Improved Kilo instead of the kilo he initally grumbles about, i really dont find any discussion of tactics to be worthwhile unless those involved are using the same scenario with the same sub . whose to say what the differences are ? there are far too many variables.

even in 2 different scenarios using the same sub , what about sonar conditions,weather , the distances involved, the type of enemy(specific ships not just "american") , the number of aircraft on already patrol , the number of seawolves lurking about, etc etc etc etc.

simply compare apples to apples , is all.

Originally Posted by Palindromeria

i have not been able to get anywhere as close as you have managed to.

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I'm sorry to hear that.

why ? do you think i need your sorrow ?:rotfl:
i respect you but , puhleez

Originally Posted by pisces

And it would have added to the constructive element in the critisism that you seek.

i wasnt seeking criticism nor did i ask for any, i was agreeing with SeaQueens initial asessment:hmm:

now, back to the great tribble hunt.

[Palindromeria]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.

no worries

regards

dave

[Bellman]

Palindromeria ''......... instead of the kilo he** initialy grumbles about''

**Sorry to be picky but that should be 'she' - our respected lady contributor who has rightly earned the title Queen !

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I think the Improved KILO might be a little overpowered in the game. Last night I surfaced in the middle of a CSG just to see if something was wrong because I was so worried that something would detect me and nothing had..

I think I just realized why this was happening. In DW, the screen's sonar washes out at the speed I had the formation going at, so of course they won't detect me. DUH! :-)

[Dr.Sid]

Yeah .. missions are often designed like this. They at least should stop pinging, because it only makes them easier targets.