Evasive tactics: easier in real life???

AS · 12-03-06, 06:36 PM

Hi all, I´ve been reading about GWX making Destroyers even more deadly

and I´ve been reading pages and pages about "evasive tactics" ... now I´ve also read MANY books on real U-Boat warfare (as I´m sure many of you did as well), and here´s what I conclude from my reading:

Authentic U-Boat diaries and reports say little or nothing about "evasive tactics" - it doesn´t seem to be an important issue. Real U-Boat men like Buchheim and Hirschfeld describe being chased and depth-charged like a very ordinary thing. Unlike in Das Boot the crew stayed very calm and wouldn´t freak out and scream and shout etc. (Buchheim, the author of Das Boot, was very angry about these scenes and called them "Hollywood Nonsense"
There´s some historical footage confirming how quietly the crew reacted under attack, too.

What´s more interesting is that real Commanders didn´t have any super-clever evasive "tactics", on the contrary, when you read Buchheim, Hirschfeld, Topp or other eye-witnesses, you are surprised how NAIVE the commanders and the crew often were.

When under attack, they usually ran silent and just WAITED while keeping the course. Reportedly, commanders very often just lay on their bed, reading (or at least pretending) or slumbering and nothing much happened. Every now and then they would ask for sonar contacts or dive a little deeper when they were pinged. Destroyers, on the other hand, were very inefficient especially in early war, partly because the crews were not well trained, partly because ASDIC was easily disturbed and inaccurate sometimes.

So what am I getting at? Profound evasive tactics may add to gameplay, but do not really seem to reflect the real thing. In real life being depth charged was a bit like playing Hide and Seek with a lot of good/bad luck involved on both sides. It was a common "tactic" to just sit and wait and keep running silent in one direction. Considering how SLOW U-Boats were at silent running, it wouldn´t have made much sense to change course too often because they would end up staying at the same place forever instead of getting away.

Just something to think about....

Cheers, AS

_Seth_ · 12-03-06, 09:06 PM

Hmmm...this is a good question.... We also have to remember the "human factor" in all this (Well shown by Johann in "das Boot"). this could have hit the uboatcrew aswell as the DD crew. And bad weather could have different impact on different people, making the scenario very different. But again, this is a really interesting question....:hmm:
Good one, AS!

THE_MASK · 12-03-06, 09:14 PM

As deep as i can go and i mean deep(if you have any hull damage then forget it) . I try never to travel in shallow waters . Then i just travel at 1 knot for as long as it takes . Now i am talking pre 1943 . Late war with NYGM in shore campaign mod , i have no idea because i havnt really been there . Regarding GWX i just hope its realistic but scary and fun at the same time .

TarJak · 12-03-06, 09:33 PM

I think its also worth noting that both sides during the war, probably from around mod 1941 onwards were both well aware of the fact that ASDIC was ineffective if the target got under a thermocline and one of the main reasons the germans did not develop an effective bathythermograph was that in the Atlantic the thermocline was usually below 500ft-600ft, well below the diving capabilit of most uboats. In the Pacific the layer could sometimes be found within 200ft of the surface.

One thing that annoys the crap out of me is the accuracy of allied sonar/ASDIC when detecting my uboat when I'm in the middle of a convoy going at some speed. In RL under these circumstances they hydrophones are next to useless and even an acitve ping will be very lucky to locate a shallow submarine in amongst all the hull movements in the convoy. Then the escorts come charging in and dropping DC's in amongst the convoy lines. Something a RL DD commander would turn pale at.

_Seth_ · 12-03-06, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

One thing that annoys the crap out of me is the accuracy of allied sonar/ASDIC when detecting my uboat when I'm in the middle of a convoy going at some speed. In RL under these circumstances they hydrophones are next to useless and even an acitve ping will be very lucky to locate a shallow submarine in amongst all the hull movements in the convoy. Then the escorts come charging in and dropping DC's in amongst the convoy lines. Something a RL DD commander would turn pale at.

True. i often use the convoys as a "shield" against enemy sonar, but they always seems to find me, no matter what i do..

raduz · 12-04-06, 02:39 AM

totally agree with AS! According to Otto Kretschmer, in early war years the U-boat could approach a convoy on surface (lack of radar) and follow it, then attack even when there were escorts. Kretschmer said, the DDs usually didnt notice him. instead of this, the in-game AI starts just to be "suspicious" when she is near your position. just because you are within short range!!! now tell me how could a DD take suspicion without any sign of your presence? (if you are quiet and no trail on the surface). I think the GWX team should stay focused on things like that, rather then making DDs "deadly"...

_Seth_ · 12-04-06, 02:52 AM

Im not intending to hijack this thread; But what about the tactics used by surface ships when they attack eachother? I looked into this topic before,after my video "the convoy", where german ships encountered a british taskforce. It was IMHO the most stupid tactics i have ever seen, from both partys.

mr chris · 12-04-06, 03:57 AM

I can say that the DD's are a bit more Deadly in GWX but not massakistic as people are thinking they will be... But when you get to the business end from mid 42 to 45 you will want to be a bit more carefull when planing a attack. It is possible to attack and get away its just a little bit more challanging.
Anyways that was my 2 cents

robj250 · 12-07-06, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AS

Hi all, I´ve been reading about GWX making Destroyers even more deadly

and I´ve been reading pages and pages about "evasive tactics" ... now I´ve also read MANY books on real U-Boat warfare (as I´m sure many of you did as well), and here´s what I conclude from my reading:

Authentic U-Boat diaries and reports say little or nothing about "evasive tactics" - it doesn´t seem to be an important issue. Real U-Boat men like Buchheim and Hirschfeld describe being chased and depth-charged like a very ordinary thing. Unlike in Das Boot the crew stayed very calm and wouldn´t freak out and scream and shout etc. (Buchheim, the author of Das Boot, was very angry about these scenes and called them "Hollywood Nonsense"
There´s some historical footage confirming how quietly the crew reacted under attack, too.

What´s more interesting is that real Commanders didn´t have any super-clever evasive "tactics", on the contrary, when you read Buchheim, Hirschfeld, Topp or other eye-witnesses, you are surprised how NAIVE the commanders and the crew often were.

When under attack, they usually ran silent and just WAITED while keeping the course. Reportedly, commanders very often just lay on their bed, reading (or at least pretending) or slumbering and nothing much happened. Every now and then they would ask for sonar contacts or dive a little deeper when they were pinged. Destroyers, on the other hand, were very inefficient especially in early war, partly because the crews were not well trained, partly because ASDIC was easily disturbed and inaccurate sometimes.

So what am I getting at? Profound evasive tactics may add to gameplay, but do not really seem to reflect the real thing. In real life being depth charged was a bit like playing Hide and Seek with a lot of good/bad luck involved on both sides. It was a common "tactic" to just sit and wait and keep running silent in one direction. Considering how SLOW U-Boats were at silent running, it wouldn´t have made much sense to change course too often because they would end up staying at the same place forever instead of getting away.

Just something to think about....

Cheers, AS

I agree with AS and don't forget the human factor. TGW and GWX are a little unbalanced with their "realistic" AI. Escorts do NOT always spot a sub on the surface, unless you're in the Movies. :rotfl: :rotfl:

Jimbuna · 12-07-06, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robj250

Quote:

Originally Posted by AS

Hi all, I´ve been reading about GWX making Destroyers even more deadly

and I´ve been reading pages and pages about "evasive tactics" ... now I´ve also read MANY books on real U-Boat warfare (as I´m sure many of you did as well), and here´s what I conclude from my reading:

Authentic U-Boat diaries and reports say little or nothing about "evasive tactics" - it doesn´t seem to be an important issue. Real U-Boat men like Buchheim and Hirschfeld describe being chased and depth-charged like a very ordinary thing. Unlike in Das Boot the crew stayed very calm and wouldn´t freak out and scream and shout etc. (Buchheim, the author of Das Boot, was very angry about these scenes and called them "Hollywood Nonsense"
There´s some historical footage confirming how quietly the crew reacted under attack, too.

What´s more interesting is that real Commanders didn´t have any super-clever evasive "tactics", on the contrary, when you read Buchheim, Hirschfeld, Topp or other eye-witnesses, you are surprised how NAIVE the commanders and the crew often were.

When under attack, they usually ran silent and just WAITED while keeping the course. Reportedly, commanders very often just lay on their bed, reading (or at least pretending) or slumbering and nothing much happened. Every now and then they would ask for sonar contacts or dive a little deeper when they were pinged. Destroyers, on the other hand, were very inefficient especially in early war, partly because the crews were not well trained, partly because ASDIC was easily disturbed and inaccurate sometimes.

So what am I getting at? Profound evasive tactics may add to gameplay, but do not really seem to reflect the real thing. In real life being depth charged was a bit like playing Hide and Seek with a lot of good/bad luck involved on both sides. It was a common "tactic" to just sit and wait and keep running silent in one direction. Considering how SLOW U-Boats were at silent running, it wouldn´t have made much sense to change course too often because they would end up staying at the same place forever instead of getting away.

Just something to think about....

Cheers, AS

I agree with AS and don't forget the human factor. TGW and GWX are a little unbalanced with their "realistic" AI. Escorts do NOT always spot a sub on the surface, unless you're in the Movies. :rotfl: :rotfl:

Or GWX

:rotfl: :rotfl:

12-03-06, 06:36 PM	#1
AS 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 275 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 0	Evasive tactics: easier in real life??? Hi all, I´ve been reading about GWX making Destroyers even more deadly and I´ve been reading pages and pages about "evasive tactics" ... now I´ve also read MANY books on real U-Boat warfare (as I´m sure many of you did as well), and here´s what I conclude from my reading: Authentic U-Boat diaries and reports say little or nothing about "evasive tactics" - it doesn´t seem to be an important issue. Real U-Boat men like Buchheim and Hirschfeld describe being chased and depth-charged like a very ordinary thing. Unlike in Das Boot the crew stayed very calm and wouldn´t freak out and scream and shout etc. (Buchheim, the author of Das Boot, was very angry about these scenes and called them "Hollywood Nonsense" There´s some historical footage confirming how quietly the crew reacted under attack, too. What´s more interesting is that real Commanders didn´t have any super-clever evasive "tactics", on the contrary, when you read Buchheim, Hirschfeld, Topp or other eye-witnesses, you are surprised how NAIVE the commanders and the crew often were. When under attack, they usually ran silent and just WAITED while keeping the course. Reportedly, commanders very often just lay on their bed, reading (or at least pretending) or slumbering and nothing much happened. Every now and then they would ask for sonar contacts or dive a little deeper when they were pinged. Destroyers, on the other hand, were very inefficient especially in early war, partly because the crews were not well trained, partly because ASDIC was easily disturbed and inaccurate sometimes. So what am I getting at? Profound evasive tactics may add to gameplay, but do not really seem to reflect the real thing. In real life being depth charged was a bit like playing Hide and Seek with a lot of good/bad luck involved on both sides. It was a common "tactic" to just sit and wait and keep running silent in one direction. Considering how SLOW U-Boats were at silent running, it wouldn´t have made much sense to change course too often because they would end up staying at the same place forever instead of getting away. Just something to think about.... Cheers, AS __________________ Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. (Oscar Wilde)

12-03-06, 09:06 PM	#2
_Seth_ Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In Tromsoe, @Tirpitz' final resting place.. Posts: 3,277 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	Hmmm...this is a good question.... We also have to remember the "human factor" in all this (Well shown by Johann in "das Boot"). this could have hit the uboatcrew aswell as the DD crew. And bad weather could have different impact on different people, making the scenario very different. But again, this is a really interesting question....:hmm: Good one, AS! __________________

12-04-06, 02:52 AM	#7
_Seth_ Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In Tromsoe, @Tirpitz' final resting place.. Posts: 3,277 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	Im not intending to hijack this thread; But what about the tactics used by surface ships when they attack eachother? I looked into this topic before,after my video "the convoy", where german ships encountered a british taskforce. It was IMHO the most stupid tactics i have ever seen, from both partys. __________________

12-04-06, 03:57 AM	#8
mr chris Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Herefordshire, England Posts: 3,562 Downloads: 216 Uploads: 0	I can say that the DD's are a bit more Deadly in GWX but not massakistic as people are thinking they will be... But when you get to the business end from mid 42 to 45 you will want to be a bit more carefull when planing a attack. It is possible to attack and get away its just a little bit more challanging. Anyways that was my 2 cents __________________

12-03-06, 09:14 PM	#3
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	As deep as i can go and i mean deep(if you have any hull damage then forget it) . I try never to travel in shallow waters . Then i just travel at 1 knot for as long as it takes . Now i am talking pre 1943 . Late war with NYGM in shore campaign mod , i have no idea because i havnt really been there . Regarding GWX i just hope its realistic but scary and fun at the same time .

12-03-06, 09:33 PM	#4
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I think its also worth noting that both sides during the war, probably from around mod 1941 onwards were both well aware of the fact that ASDIC was ineffective if the target got under a thermocline and one of the main reasons the germans did not develop an effective bathythermograph was that in the Atlantic the thermocline was usually below 500ft-600ft, well below the diving capabilit of most uboats. In the Pacific the layer could sometimes be found within 200ft of the surface. One thing that annoys the crap out of me is the accuracy of allied sonar/ASDIC when detecting my uboat when I'm in the middle of a convoy going at some speed. In RL under these circumstances they hydrophones are next to useless and even an acitve ping will be very lucky to locate a shallow submarine in amongst all the hull movements in the convoy. Then the escorts come charging in and dropping DC's in amongst the convoy lines. Something a RL DD commander would turn pale at.

12-04-06, 02:39 AM	#6
raduz Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Slovakia Posts: 205 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	totally agree with AS! According to Otto Kretschmer, in early war years the U-boat could approach a convoy on surface (lack of radar) and follow it, then attack even when there were escorts. Kretschmer said, the DDs usually didnt notice him. instead of this, the in-game AI starts just to be "suspicious" when she is near your position. just because you are within short range!!! now tell me how could a DD take suspicion without any sign of your presence? (if you are quiet and no trail on the surface). I think the GWX team should stay focused on things like that, rather then making DDs "deadly"...