Question about Type VII ballast tanks

[rentacow]

I present the Nosulus Rift:

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[Catfish]

^ So you can sniff and smell in stereo?

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

EPIC

[THE_MASK]

Will there be something to do regarding loading torps ? 4 crew but 5 jobs etc . Which one do you leave out for the moment . I would hate to be stuck down the back the whole gametime with not much to do while in multiplayer . Maybe there could be an aft torpedo that can only be manually loaded from the rear compartment crew member . Maybe have some diesel engine maintenance or something . I would love to see the blue flames come out of the engine like in Das Boot .

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

....They don't want Wolfpack to be another subsim in the mold of SH and most of the others before it. It's time to play a different way.

hello Neal,

i think that sh series (i mean sh3 ,sh4 and sh5) are very overestimated in regard to be considered as simulators. From sh1 till sh2 things were developed smoothly in sim parts but ,after that, sh3 (...sh4...sh5) brought nothing new on sim development.
With sh3 they presented additionally on sh2 : a)some nice 3d graphics (thats ok) , b) a crew 'management' system (which is non interesting part for a simulator and the devs themselfs 'admited' that by making it automatic in sh4) and c) -and most interesting feature- the dynamic campaign.Which campaign proved not so 'dynamic' becuase of the repetation of known sunk ships or the randomness of ships following allways the same route from the same startpoints. This feature was really interesting but needed development,something that left unfinished to the next versions too.End result is that campaign left half 'dynamic' and were no any development to the only (imo) new interesting feature that sh3 presented.
On the other hand in sh3 ,sim elements that were allready built in sh2 vanished ,things like the target's dial heading,the torpedo's run time dial , the impact angle dial (which reappeard in sh4) or the elevation degrees scale in scopes and they added nothing new.
From my point of view,the point that 'saved' these 'simulators' all these years is exactly the fact that they were very easily moddable and people loved that.

For these been said and from what i am reading from subsimers all these years ,their deep desire (and mine) is a pure sub simulator.We never had that (after sh2) and next sh versions failed to deliver. i don't believe that anyone really wants one more reproduce of sh series as you wrote in your message. One more thing that history show is that 3d graphics is not making the trick anymore so the gameplay is what must be the top priority. ( graphics can be up leveled any time later)

I agree with you that it is time to play a different way but by 'different' i mean that it is time to play (at this life) a real sub simulator.That is what is really missing ,we don't have it all these years so it is wrong to say that we had it with sh3,4,5 becuase we didn't.

Don't take me wrong, i am not shooting the project here.On the contrary,i really like the project and some of its features (i have written about it on some other of my posts) , i am just putting my thoughts for a constructive (future?) development that i believe will be a real success.

Closing my message and resuming it , i would suggest to focus on three things (with that order): 1. sim elements , 2. gameplay and 3. as possible it can be...moddable.
3D Graphics can wait and can be done any time later,allready they are at an ''acceptable'' level.

ps: ''Danger from the Deep'' were on a good road and it was really sad that they discard it. Atmospheric and focused

all the best to the efforts for a making a really good game

[mambo]

First; awesome sim, congratulations and about how to operate ballast tanks, looking at the diagrams, I think: handwheel on the stern bulkhead of the control room was for ballast tank no 1 vent valves and handwheel on the forward bulkhead of the control room was for ballast tank no 5 vent valves. The levers controlling vents of both chambers of the ballast tank no. 3 starboard and port were above in the control room( and maybe no.2 and 4) so in Wolfpack we operate no 1, no 5 and negative.

[mambo]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/atta...1&d=1557964388
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/atta...1&d=1557964531
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/atta...1&d=1557964593

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Feldpost

[OFFTOPIC]
Maybe the swedes including Neal are creating the first UBoot game which can be labeled as Submarine Simulation
A submarine is nothing else than an underwater plane and good trimming is a fundemental in every flight-sim... from 'Silent Service' (C64) until SH5 we only got 'tactical' simulation of submarines, but 'Wolfpack' can also get the first submarine-simulation...

When the team thinks, get that stuff early in development into the core engine b/c it could be needed someday

I am sure there will be realism-settings later for just go and keep periscope depth, but to get a game-engine which also allows you to play the LI and try to keep periscope depth at BFT9 in north atlantic while the boss ordered to keep silent as possible
[/OFFTOPIC]

Hopefully there will be options as you say, for those who aren't interested in all this.
Fwiw, be wary of the road that things appear to be going down. Ultra-detailing desired by some was a major part in killing off flight-sims.

[Aktungbby]

Mambo!

[Jojojung]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

I think this might be the correct Diving procedure, but i think Point 12 is not correct. The so called "Untertriebszelle" is filled with seawater in an wartime Trip on surface.its is blow out when the bridge gets under the waterline. The "untertriebszelle" should allow a much quicker diving time.

That means that the small „untertriebszelle“ in Wolfpack should filled with seawater on surface at begin of the patrol, when the game get it right.

[Jojojung]

In a german type VIIC there are 5 different forms of ballast tanks with the correct german vocabulary:

1) Tauchzellen = MBT
2) Regelzellen = Regulation Tanks (own translation) for fitting the boat to different watertemperature, salinity, consumption of supplies etc.
3) Trimmzellen = Tanks to keep the horizontal diving position (to compensate the heavy wight of the diesel engines f.e.)
4) Untertriebszelle = crash dive Tank
5) Torpedoregelzelle = are filled immediatly when the torpedo gets out, to compensate the lost of wight and prevent a liftup of the bow

The diesel fuel was also stored in the saddle tanks outside. The fuel was swimming on the seawater in the saddletanks. When the fuel gets empty over the time, more and more seawater gets through the openings on the bottom of the saddletank and the boat gets heavier over the time. So the Regelzellen have to blow out more and more to hold the correct position.

[derstosstrupp]

Originally Posted by Jojojung

In a german type VIIC there are 5 different forms of ballast tanks with the correct german vocabulary:

1) Tauchzellen = MBT
2) Regelzellen = Regulation Tanks (own translation) for fitting the boat to different watertemperature, salinity, consumption of supplies etc.
3) Trimmzellen = Tanks to keep the horizontal diving position (to compensate the heavy wight of the diesel engines f.e.)
4) Untertriebszelle = crash dive Tank
5) Torpedoregelzelle = are filled immediatly when the torpedo gets out, to compensate the lost of wight and prevent a liftup of the bow

The diesel fuel was also stored in the saddle tanks outside. The fuel was swimming on the seawater in the saddletanks. When the fuel gets empty over the time, more and more seawater gets through the openings on the bottom of the saddletank and the boat gets heavier over the time. So the Regelzellen have to blow out more and more to hold the correct position.

I’d be a big advocate of fleshing out this part of the game. As it stands now, depthkeeping is a bit too easy IMHO. Maybe build in trim and regulator tanks and introduce a randomization factor to throw the boat out of trim each mission requiring pumping fore/aft between trim tanks and use of the regulator tank (negative is kind of a proxy now for that once at depth). Would be interesting to have to pump forward/aft on firing a torpedo too.

[Jojojung]

In this picture you see the handling of the quick vents for the quick flooding of the MBT (Tauchzellen) for a crash dive.

[mambo]

Vent valve MB tank 2 and 4 (Blue)
Vent valve MB tank 3 (Green)

[KMS Mordekaiser]

Hello! I just registered at Subsim. I am excited to participate in this forum, because I am incredibly fascinated by WWI and WWII submarines. Also, I found this forum stumbling around during some research.
Be warned though: I have MANY questions.

One of these involves the saddle tanks of the Type VIIC and the stability bulges of the Italian Navy's Submarines (WWII).

From plans of a VIIC it seems the tanks were placed at the upper body of the ship. Would it be logical to place them along the whole side instead of just the upper area?

I put in an image of the plans I am referring to.