[REL] Open Horizons II (old thread)

[stoianm]

Originally Posted by Zedi

No more room
But yeah, no problem.. I can replace/mix few real mines with dummies, so sailing through a minefield will be really like a russian roulette.

you have some space left in bunkers main bases

[TheDarkWraith]

Originally Posted by Zedi

No more room
But yeah, no problem.. I can replace/mix few real mines with dummies, so sailing through a minefield will be really like a russian roulette.

these dummies should be floating mines only correct?

[Zedi]

Yes, the dummies role is to be very visible.

[Jaguar]

I did some research to help you guys with the numbers of ships in a given convoy and its escorts.

First, because I was playing this campaign, a list of the artic convoys in 1942.



PQs 16/17/18 had strong support groups against surface attacks. As can be seen, the merchant to escort ratio was just 2, and some of the escorts were slow trawlers, dangerous to subs but yet underpowered and underarmed in relation to dedicated escort ships.

Second, some sample convoys in UK.



As observed, the escorts usually didn´t stayed with the convoy during the whole journey, so the numbers can be misleading and this information is limited.

To counter this, Uboat.net has information about the Great Convoy Battles, so with some adjustments it´s possible to stablish the escorts involved when U-Boats were attacking.



Keep in mind that some convoys changed escort groups and/or received reinforcements during those battles.

[Zedi]

Wow! Thanks a LOT Jaguar for this info! Is exactly I was looking for, as I intend to add every major convoy to the campaign at their exact historical date. Also, I will reduce the escort numbers so we will not see weird convoys where the escort ship are more numerous than the merchants. So, thanks a lot.. I will place in the campaign everything on this list you posted now. Thanks again!

I already added SC42 to the campaign as a mission/objective and I plan to add SC7 too maybe. SC7 was a very tragic story, after I read it I had to stay away from SH for few days as I hated very much the uboats. These guys left Sydney/Canada as a slow convoy with 35 merchants and only.. 3 escorts! A convoy filled with slow merchants carry nothing special but timber, coal etc. They tried to dodge the wolpacks by diverting on a route close to Greenland, but .. life sucks. A single uboat sighted them then alarmed the whole Atlantic, so a instant wolpack formed on just to hunt down this doomed convoy. The escorts were completely overhelmed .. all they were able to do was to rescue survivors. Lately the convoy was reinforced, but it was already late, the damage was done. Some of these stories are so tragic that is already hard to read

Back on topic.. I wanna hear you guys opinion about the Operation Weserubung mission, what to do with it. The mission include 2 objectives, sinking 5 merchants then 1 battleship. Now .. this is a important historical mission and I dont wanna scrap it and turn it into a "sink xy tons" mission. But Im not sure what to do. Leave the objective as it is and improve only the reports about the BB location, extend the objective to any warship type and not only a BB, or .. turn in into a "sink any enemy ship entering Norway territorial water"? Im open for suggestions.

[Jaguar]

"sink any enemy ship entering Norway territorial water" seems to me the most realistic option.

[jwilliams]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

"sink any enemy ship entering Norway territorial water" seems to me the most realistic option.

^^
This gets my vote.



I don't want to have to sink battleships. It's not realistic to fail a mission if you don't sink the battleship.
I highly doubt uboats were ordered to sink battleships. If you sink the battleship... Great. But please don't make it compulsory.

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Though this is a noble idea, I see a couple of potential problems. Are you leaving the convoys randomized, or will they be scripted with the actual ships? Will you even have the specific individual convoys or will all the 'HX' convoys be represented by a route with the actual convoys randomized? The reason I ask is that if every specific convoy is placed on the map, players will be able to look them up and track them from start to finish, which ends up being less realistic rather than more.

Ducimus faced a similar problem in his work on SH4. Which is more realistic - having things exactly as they were, which gives the player information he wouldn't have had in real life, or making things worse than they really were, which makes the player realistically cautious?


Not every nation had every kind of ship. Estonia, for example, had only twenty-three ships in her merchant fleet, and the very newest of them was built back in 1918. I can help provide a lot of the information on individual ships based on the research I've done for my SH3 Ship Names mod, but as I said I believe there's a possibility that the more detailed you make it the less realistic it becomes, since hindsight gives us information no one could possibly have had at the time.

Steve, the SH5 campaign engine is very different form any previous version, its brilliant and Im in love with it. Now that I have learned the basic knowhow, we can do amazing things with it. Its just a question of time and manpower as rewriting the wole campaign its a huge task.

How it will work? Well, there are 2 possibilities. Using every convoy historical route by forcing them to follow a scripted path, or let them having their own fate by just pointing out when and where to start and where to end, so the route is their own decision. I choose the second option, no scripted route. That way, you will never find the same convoy in the same spot, no matter how many time you play the mission. And you may never find these convoys and blame me by a lousy job, just because their randomness when choosing a route

How convoys works right now in SH5? The system is based on generic ships and convoys. Every major convoy name is already set in the game and they appear in the game at their correct timetable. For example, there a generic convoy named HX_ that will leave Halifax to Liverpool every 5 day between 40-41 set with FollowPath=False. These are the big convoy we see in the game. Even the liners and famous battleships are in and they sail at their correct date. Found out that Bismarck and Hood are set to leave ports also on their historical date, but dunno if they ever will meet. Because the campaign is based on randomness and if they meet an enemy on route, there will be delays. Not to mention the mines I already put into the campaign.. they can seriously interfere with the traffic :P

Anyway, my plan is to add every important convoy to the campaign at the exact date and if possible with the exact content. So there will no more only brit or american convoys and you may wanna be more careful when choosing a target. I could go further with this and add every ship in the convoy their original name, load and ship type.. but thats already way to much work.

Now Im placing in the campaign the convoys from the list provided by Jaguar, already done with half. What is more important in this plan, is the escort size. No more convoys where the escorts are more than the merchants. So Steve, if you can and want to help with more info on the convoys, you have new ideas .. you are more than welcome to contribute as I know you are expert with these things. Im glad you asked, thanks.

Btw, Im using convoyweb.org.uk for details on these convoys, if anyone else have a better online database, pls let me now.

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by jwilliams

^^
This gets my vote.



I don't want to have to sink battleships. It's not realistic to fail a mission if you don't sink the battleship.
I highly doubt uboats were ordered to sink battleships. If you sink the battleship... Great. But please don't make it compulsory.

I finally figured out what to do. I will not change the missions location, only the objectives. So you will be sent out to patrol an area where you may also hop onto a big BB or carrier. Engaging them will be your choice, not something mandatory. So this will add more fun to the campaign.

Regarding the tonnage objectives, how is this:

OLD - NEW (tonnage)
200.000 > 20.000
100.000 > 15.000
50.000 > 8.000

If you had reach the tonnage objective, just set up your own patrol area and sink stuff until a new mission will be available. And now that we will have new ships with less tonnage, the game will be more realistic. No more only huge ships with at least 5-7k tons/ship.

[sentenc3]

Originally Posted by Zedi

Btw, Im using convoyweb.org.uk for details on these convoys, if anyone else have a better online database, pls let me now.

I leave here a link to another page of the convoys, if it's any more help

http://www.warsailors.com/convoys/index.html

[Zedi]

Booth sites are cross linked, using each other data.

But there are few differences, for example HX90 with 49 merchants and only 3 escort according to uboat.net vs 41 merchants and 8 escorts (35 ships TDS) on Hague's records.

The difference is because on route convoys merged or ships left and also new escorts were assigned, but I cannot do this in the campaign engine. So Ive put 40 merchants and 8 escorts for now.

[jwilliams]

Originally Posted by Zedi

I finally figured out what to do. I will not change the missions location, only the objectives. So you will be sent out to patrol an area where you may also hop onto a big BB or carrier. Engaging them will be your choice, not something mandatory. So this will add more fun to the campaign.

Regarding the tonnage objectives, how is this:

OLD - NEW (tonnage)
200.000 > 20.000
100.000 > 15.000
50.000 > 8.000

If you had reach the tonnage objective, just set up your own patrol area and sink stuff until a new mission will be available. And now that we will have new ships with less tonnage, the game will be more realistic. No more only huge ships with at least 5-7k tons/ship.

I guess the tonnage amounts needed, will need to be play tested. And maybe tweeked in the future. You dont want the tonnage to be too easy, but you also dont want it to be impossible.

[Zedi]

Im all ears and open to suggestions, this should be based on the community wish. So what would be a more acceptable tonnage requirement? Keep in mind, there are missions with different time frame. From 2-3 months, up to 1 year or more.

[Jaguar]

Is this tonnage thing really needed? I may be very much mistaken but why not just patrol a given area, or areas and other stuff like that?

If one sinks ships one gets promoted and/or receive awards (very poorly modeled in the game btw) like Iron and Knight´s Cross, U-Boat clasp and such...

As a compromise, is it possible to have two types of campaigns, one with "normal" and other with "realistic" objectives?

Just some ideas for hardcore players.

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Zedi

But there are few differences, for example HX90 with 49 merchants and only 3 escort according to uboat.net vs 41 merchants and 8 escorts (35 ships TDS) on Hague's records.
The difference is because on route convoys merged or ships left and also new escorts were assigned, but I cannot do this in the campaign engine. So Ive put 40 merchants and 8 escorts for now.

HX90 is indeed a good example. According to Hague´s it departed from Halifax on 21 november 1940 and arrived at Liverpool on december 5. It had 8 escorts according to Hagues´s records:
HMCS Assiniboine- DD of C class, escort 21-22/11 (*)
HMS Folkestone - sloop of Folkestone class, escort 02-05/12
HMCS French - auxiliary patrol vessel, escort 21/11(*)
HMS Gentian - corvette Flower class, escort 02-05/12
HMS Laconia - AMC, escort 21/11-02/12
HMS Vanquisher - DD, V&W class, escort 05/12
HMS Viscount - DD, V&W class, escort 01-05/12
HMCS Windflower - corvette Flower class, escort 21/11(*)

Those three ships (*) only escorted the convoy near Halifax. Actually, between 22/11 and 01/12 the only escort available was the AMC Laconia so 5 escorts instead of 8 seems a good compromise IMHO .

Dunno if it´s possible but a suggestion would be to have small hunter killer groups patrolling around the western approaches. Coupled with IRAI´s ability to convoys send distress messages and be reinforced by near warships (within a 30 km radius?) it may be a usefull workaround. Or not .