Thoughts on Yasen class SSN

speed150mph · 02-27-14, 08:19 PM

The launch of the most advanced submarine in the Russian navy is a very big deal. This submarine may, if it stands up to reputation, be a competitor against the legends, sea wolf, Virginia, 212 ect... Call me insane but I have never seen the truth in the claims of a "junk heep" Russian submarine fleet. I maintain that aside from electronics and stealth, Russians have the best submarine builders in the world. after-all, look at what they have built in the past. Their sub hulls go faster, dive deeper, are more structurally rugged, and have a far larger and more diverse arsenal then anything anyone else makes. however, this is just my opinion and many will disagree.

But I want to know what the subsim community thinks about this new Russian vessel. You can see a great resemblance between her and her parent class, the venerable Akula class. if reports can be believed, this sub is silent up to 28 knots with a 35 knot top speed, this sub can dive down to an astonishing 600M. being set up with a new spherical sonar and WAA sensor suite, this sub makes an astonishing leap in sensors over past Russian designs. following the Russian doctern of being armed to the teeth, It is reported to have 8 650mm and 2 533mm torpedo tubes, no doubt set up to carry the vast array of weapons designed for these tubes, including ASW missiles, mobile mines, and the Shkval II rocket torpedo. on top of that it has 32 VLS silos carrying the old klub ASM, ASW, and LAM missiles, plus the new long range nuclear capable Kalibr missile.

Now of course it being a new sub fresh from sea trials, its very possible that much of this information is incorrect in either over or underestimations. but that aside, what are your thoughts on Russia's most recent creation?

it

02-27-14, 08:22 PM

How soon will we see it on TV along with past greats?

CCIP · 02-27-14, 08:58 PM

Actually the Russians have been pretty good at electronics as far as subs go. Russian subs have always relied on more automation and smaller but more specialized crews than their Western counterparts.

That said, I'm not very positive about the Yasen. The shape of the naval manufacturing industry in Russia is pretty poor right now. They have lost a lot in the last 25 years. I am skeptical of the actual "newness" of this, and actually believe these to be a "recycled" and somewhat upgraded Akula with little new tech. There has been a lot of pressure from the government on the arms manufacturing industry to produce trumped-up showpieces, and I think this is just another one.

There are some good signs here and there, but I don't think Yasen is it. It's built on a solid foundation from the Akula, and it's probably a good sub... assuming the Russians have the resources to maintain it in top shape. But it's not a revolutionary design, and in my estimation, not even close to the Virginia or Seawolf. But more than that, I don't think the Russian navy is currently capable of operating a large fleet of modern nuclear subs effectively, at all. It's going to take a lot of deliberate work for them to do so, work that is probably not worth it. I think Russia's submarine fleet needs a major rethink.

Admiral Halsey · 02-28-14, 01:38 AM

I've always thought the Russian's are a bit unfairly treated when it comes to sub. We seem to forget that with the way they build them it takes a lot of punishment to actually sink them. Damage that would sink a US sub(Take your pick.) would only just damage theirs with the subs still being operable.(Abate they'd still have to return to port but a damaged yet still surviving sub is better then a sunk one.)

Jimbuna · 02-28-14, 05:15 AM

IMO a lot will depend on how stealthy or undetectable she is because once she unleashes any of the vast armaments she is supposed to have, she will reveal herself and even though she may be able to take more damage than a western sub, or so it is believed, she would be prosecuted to death.

I agree with the comments made by CCIP....probably an upgrade with a few improvements.

CCIP · 02-28-14, 08:36 AM

Oh, survivability has absolutely been something the Russians have always put a lot of effort into (and that's been since they started building subs in general). As far as forward thinking and unique systems, there's no denying the Russians still have some pretty awesome achievements as far as weapons, automation, hull construction, etc. etc. etc.

The problem is that there's a difference between inventing and testing something, and being able to field it as an effective operational weapon. I don't for a moment doubt either the Russian engineers who design these, nor the men who operate the submarines. The problem is that everything else in Russia is in a very sorry state right now, and that gets in the way. It's easy to create something on paper that sounds amazing, but there's no shortcut to making it truly effective, and I don't believe Russia can.

Same can be said of Russia's civilian aviation industry, for example. They have some unique aircraft. On paper, their planes look no worse if not better than Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier or Embraer etc. - and they have no less if not more experience building planes, in theory. But one look at the safety and reliability record of Russian aviation lately and you begin to see that actually, it's in serious trouble and for all earnest effort, can't get out of it even with major Western involvement. How an autonomously-designed, natively maintained and terribly underfunded submarine fleet can do better is, well, an open question...

BTW, I say all this as a native-born Russian with lots of links to the old country, and even some relatives/friends who work in shipbuilding, engineering, or have sailed on Navy ships

Skybird · 02-28-14, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

I've always thought the Russian's are a bit unfairly treated when it comes to sub. We seem to forget that with the way they build them it takes a lot of punishment to actually sink them.

More of their subs already sunk (or were close to) without any punishment than of ours, if I am not mistaken!? And the fear of radiation amongst Sovjet submariners...?!

I would prefer a German, British or American sub to board before a Russian, I admit. Like I would prefer to board a modern German, British or American tank before Russian T-series.

Their fighters however - there, things start to become interesting. The SU-30 and later versions are impressive, and potent in radar and armament.

CCIP · 02-28-14, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I would prefer a German, British or American sub to board before a Russian, I admit. Like I would prefer to board a modern German, British or American tank before Russian T-series.

There are some nice things about being aboard Russian subs, though

For one, because Russian subs have less than half the number of crew of equivalent Western subs, there is usually quite a bit more room aboard - and despite the stereotypes of everything Russian being uncomfortable, there is a long tradition in the Russian nuke fleet for taking care of the physical and psychological comfort of the crew. It's equally accounted for in the design of subs and the culture among the men. The Typhoons even have that famous "swimming pool" on board! And as I mentioned before, on average - Russian submarine crews are more professionalized, older and have more education than Western counterparts (which isn't a knock against the top-notch Western submariners at all! - just taking it on average and as a reflection of the different service culture). So all in all, you would probably be in pretty good company at least.

Admiral Halsey · 03-01-14, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

More of their subs already sunk (or were close to) without any punishment than of ours, if I am not mistaken!? And the fear of radiation amongst Sovjet submariners...?!

I would prefer a German, British or American sub to board before a Russian, I admit. Like I would prefer to board a modern German, British or American tank before Russian T-series.

Their fighters however - there, things start to become interesting. The SU-30 and later versions are impressive, and potent in radar and armament.

Due to accidents Skybird not actual battle damage. They way they build them would allow them to survive more torpedoes then any sub the US , Brit's or Germans have.

Mr Quatro · 02-28-14, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed150mph

But I want to know what the subsim community thinks about this new Russian vessel. You can see a great resemblance between her and her parent class, the venerable Akula class. if reports can be believed, this sub is silent up to 28 knots with a 35 knot top speed, this sub can dive down to an astonishing 600M. being set up with a new spherical sonar and WAA sensor suite, this sub makes an astonishing leap in sensors over past Russian designs.

Now of course it being a new sub fresh from sea trials, its very possible that much of this information is incorrect in either over or underestimations. but that aside, what are your thoughts on Russia's most recent creation?

No sub is silent at 28kts on the surface or under the ocean not to mention the top speed is probably well over 45kts ... what is 600M is that 900 feet?

She can probably go well below that another 300 feet easy.

As for being better only a post war critique sheet can determine that. China and Russia building submarines and third world countries wanting their old ones makes me worry more than Russia building a better submarine.

One more thought I do not and can not understand Russia having more officers than enlisted men onboard their boats. Does not make sense unless they think officers are smarter lol

VipertheSniper · 02-28-14, 03:19 PM

FYI 600M is almost 2000 ft.

02-28-14, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

what is 600M is that 900 feet?

Back to school for you!

Mr Quatro · 02-28-14, 05:00 PM

My bad ... I couldn't think over 10M 33ft sailboat. Older American problem

Yes, almost 2,000 ft is good enough to hide in all they need now is a thermal layer to hide from ASW

Karle94 · 02-28-14, 07:09 PM

The Yasen is actually based more on a cancelled upgraded Alfa than the Akula.

The Ohio is very quiet at 25 kts, that`s 1970s ere tech, so a top modern sub should be able to go faster while remaining at least as quiet.

speed150mph · 02-28-14, 11:59 PM

I wanna thank everyone for their feedback, and many interesting points were made.

One thing I wanted to note was the ruggedness of Russian subs. Ill take one of the most memorable failures that everyone holds over Russia. The Kursk incident. While there is still much controversy, I feel that the official record of the HTP practise torpedo exploding in the tube to be the most credible. But lets look at the sub itself. In the two explosions large enough to register on coastal seismometers, the entire torpedo ordinance exploded, upwards of 8 tons of explosives combined. Despite this however, the missile tubes remained intact, the reactors were never breached, and the crew had survived for a time in the aft 2 compartments. Take this in comparison where a British sub had been lost earlier to just a single of these torpedos going off. its food for thought...

and second id like to talk about crews. I never brought that up. all the points listed above are very apt. Russian submarines do appear to be designed with crew comfort in mind, which is counter to the stereotypes. The automation, the layouts, the amenities and better use of space makes them better for the crews. The crews do seem to be fairly well trained, and possibly because of the "lessons learned in blood" from past disasters and near misses, the crews are more focused and alert. that too is food for though...

I am willing to agree with the general consensus that while the Russians possess great designs the current state of the country limits their effectiveness. But does anyone notice any positive changes in this direction? It seems that while not fully recovered, that the Russian government and economy are showing promising signs of recovery.

02-27-14, 08:19 PM	#1
speed150mph Electrician's Mate Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 132 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Thoughts on Yasen class SSN The launch of the most advanced submarine in the Russian navy is a very big deal. This submarine may, if it stands up to reputation, be a competitor against the legends, sea wolf, Virginia, 212 ect... Call me insane but I have never seen the truth in the claims of a "junk heep" Russian submarine fleet. I maintain that aside from electronics and stealth, Russians have the best submarine builders in the world. after-all, look at what they have built in the past. Their sub hulls go faster, dive deeper, are more structurally rugged, and have a far larger and more diverse arsenal then anything anyone else makes. however, this is just my opinion and many will disagree. But I want to know what the subsim community thinks about this new Russian vessel. You can see a great resemblance between her and her parent class, the venerable Akula class. if reports can be believed, this sub is silent up to 28 knots with a 35 knot top speed, this sub can dive down to an astonishing 600M. being set up with a new spherical sonar and WAA sensor suite, this sub makes an astonishing leap in sensors over past Russian designs. following the Russian doctern of being armed to the teeth, It is reported to have 8 650mm and 2 533mm torpedo tubes, no doubt set up to carry the vast array of weapons designed for these tubes, including ASW missiles, mobile mines, and the Shkval II rocket torpedo. on top of that it has 32 VLS silos carrying the old klub ASM, ASW, and LAM missiles, plus the new long range nuclear capable Kalibr missile. Now of course it being a new sub fresh from sea trials, its very possible that much of this information is incorrect in either over or underestimations. but that aside, what are your thoughts on Russia's most recent creation? it

02-27-14, 08:58 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Actually the Russians have been pretty good at electronics as far as subs go. Russian subs have always relied on more automation and smaller but more specialized crews than their Western counterparts. That said, I'm not very positive about the Yasen. The shape of the naval manufacturing industry in Russia is pretty poor right now. They have lost a lot in the last 25 years. I am skeptical of the actual "newness" of this, and actually believe these to be a "recycled" and somewhat upgraded Akula with little new tech. There has been a lot of pressure from the government on the arms manufacturing industry to produce trumped-up showpieces, and I think this is just another one. There are some good signs here and there, but I don't think Yasen is it. It's built on a solid foundation from the Akula, and it's probably a good sub... assuming the Russians have the resources to maintain it in top shape. But it's not a revolutionary design, and in my estimation, not even close to the Virginia or Seawolf. But more than that, I don't think the Russian navy is currently capable of operating a large fleet of modern nuclear subs effectively, at all. It's going to take a lot of deliberate work for them to do so, work that is probably not worth it. I think Russia's submarine fleet needs a major rethink. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

02-28-14, 05:15 AM	#5
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	IMO a lot will depend on how stealthy or undetectable she is because once she unleashes any of the vast armaments she is supposed to have, she will reveal herself and even though she may be able to take more damage than a western sub, or so it is believed, she would be prosecuted to death. I agree with the comments made by CCIP....probably an upgrade with a few improvements. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

02-28-14, 08:36 AM	#6
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Oh, survivability has absolutely been something the Russians have always put a lot of effort into (and that's been since they started building subs in general). As far as forward thinking and unique systems, there's no denying the Russians still have some pretty awesome achievements as far as weapons, automation, hull construction, etc. etc. etc. The problem is that there's a difference between inventing and testing something, and being able to field it as an effective operational weapon. I don't for a moment doubt either the Russian engineers who design these, nor the men who operate the submarines. The problem is that everything else in Russia is in a very sorry state right now, and that gets in the way. It's easy to create something on paper that sounds amazing, but there's no shortcut to making it truly effective, and I don't believe Russia can. Same can be said of Russia's civilian aviation industry, for example. They have some unique aircraft. On paper, their planes look no worse if not better than Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier or Embraer etc. - and they have no less if not more experience building planes, in theory. But one look at the safety and reliability record of Russian aviation lately and you begin to see that actually, it's in serious trouble and for all earnest effort, can't get out of it even with major Western involvement. How an autonomously-designed, natively maintained and terribly underfunded submarine fleet can do better is, well, an open question... BTW, I say all this as a native-born Russian with lots of links to the old country, and even some relatives/friends who work in shipbuilding, engineering, or have sailed on Navy ships __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

02-28-14, 07:09 PM	#14
Karle94 The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Norseland Posts: 1,355 Downloads: 253 Uploads: 0	The Yasen is actually based more on a cancelled upgraded Alfa than the Akula. The Ohio is very quiet at 25 kts, that`s 1970s ere tech, so a top modern sub should be able to go faster while remaining at least as quiet. __________________ Find my mods here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/lzgciodldp58p/SH4_Mods My SH4 blog here: http://karle94.blogspot.com/

02-27-14, 08:22 PM	#2
Madox58 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	How soon will we see it on TV along with past greats?

02-28-14, 01:38 AM	#4
Admiral Halsey Best Admiral in the USN Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: USS Enterprise (CV-6) Posts: 1,740 Downloads: 298 Uploads: 0	I've always thought the Russian's are a bit unfairly treated when it comes to sub. We seem to forget that with the way they build them it takes a lot of punishment to actually sink them. Damage that would sink a US sub(Take your pick.) would only just damage theirs with the subs still being operable.(Abate they'd still have to return to port but a damaged yet still surviving sub is better then a sunk one.)

02-28-14, 03:19 PM	#11
VipertheSniper Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austria Posts: 1,035 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	FYI 600M is almost 2000 ft.

02-28-14, 05:00 PM	#13
Mr Quatro Navy Seal Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 6,772 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	My bad ... I couldn't think over 10M 33ft sailboat. Older American problem Yes, almost 2,000 ft is good enough to hide in all they need now is a thermal layer to hide from ASW

02-28-14, 11:59 PM	#15
speed150mph Electrician's Mate Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 132 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	I wanna thank everyone for their feedback, and many interesting points were made. One thing I wanted to note was the ruggedness of Russian subs. Ill take one of the most memorable failures that everyone holds over Russia. The Kursk incident. While there is still much controversy, I feel that the official record of the HTP practise torpedo exploding in the tube to be the most credible. But lets look at the sub itself. In the two explosions large enough to register on coastal seismometers, the entire torpedo ordinance exploded, upwards of 8 tons of explosives combined. Despite this however, the missile tubes remained intact, the reactors were never breached, and the crew had survived for a time in the aft 2 compartments. Take this in comparison where a British sub had been lost earlier to just a single of these torpedos going off. its food for thought... and second id like to talk about crews. I never brought that up. all the points listed above are very apt. Russian submarines do appear to be designed with crew comfort in mind, which is counter to the stereotypes. The automation, the layouts, the amenities and better use of space makes them better for the crews. The crews do seem to be fairly well trained, and possibly because of the "lessons learned in blood" from past disasters and near misses, the crews are more focused and alert. that too is food for though... I am willing to agree with the general consensus that while the Russians possess great designs the current state of the country limits their effectiveness. But does anyone notice any positive changes in this direction? It seems that while not fully recovered, that the Russian government and economy are showing promising signs of recovery.