LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod

[Deathblow]

Can anyone think of any sort of way of introducing launch transits into the game?

I just played a singleplayer mission where a Kilo was sitting a few nm off my bow taking continuous missle shots at the convoy I was escorting and I was none the wiser because no launch transits.

[Amizaur]

Some kind of it is in the mod already. Were you talking about stock DW game ? In the mod every missile launch is very loud event (NL=100) lasting several seconds (longer when launching sub is deep, very short or no at all when it's on the surface), which usually can be observed on passive sonar. Still no autocrew reports of course, like TIW - this is not possible to make for modders. But you can watch passive sonar when you expect enemy missile launches and should see it there as short but very loud effect on the bearing of enemy sub.

[Amizaur]

Just took a look at too quiet torpedos issue. Yep, because of my error, in most cases they really ARE quieter now than in stock game... Sorry

And how this happened - originally torpedo speed-added-noise was +10, so torpedo at flank was database value + 10, in most cases 82+10 = 92.
I changed torpedo speed-added-noise to +20, to increase difference between slow and fast torp setting, and recalculated the base noise levels by -10 in general, to get the same result at flank 72+20=92.

Edit: can't believe but seems that I made yet another error... base noise levels were in fact reduced not by 10, but by 20 !! Or was it intentional, maybe I wanted to reduce overal NL somewhat ?? :hmm: :hmm: can't remember now. Maybe I wanted to bring NL back to state of 1.0 game, without speed-noise fix, which was betatested and balanced. But torps were usually cavitating anyway so speed-noise fix didn't change much here.

But...

I forgot about cavitation... In game most of the torps cavitates if not run below 500ft, and cavitation adds +20 to base noise value (overwriting speed-added-noise) so most torps run at max speed were 82+20=102 in stock game !! I forgot about this. In 2.01 torpedo base noise were generally about 72, and after adding even +20 from speed or cavitation this resulted in 92 overal noise level, 10 less than cavitating stock game torpedo

Have to think how to fix this. Have few ideas, revert things as they were in stock game, so NL=82 and speed noise +10, then deep-running torps have a -10 noise bonus of not cavitating, beside being under the layer. Slow running torp had about -2 to -3 bonus in noise level.

Or bring back 82 base value but leave +20 speed noise, slow running torp has -4...-6 bonus in noise level, but then torp at flank would be same noisy like cavitating one.

I think I'll combine two above, 82 base value and +15 speed noise, then deep-running non-cavitating torp would still get -5 NL bonus, with retained nice -3...-5 bonus for slow running torps.

Or what do you think ? Should deep-running max speed but non-cavitating torps get -5 or the whole -10 NL bonus in comparison to shallower cavitating one ?

And then maybe we'll include all quickfixes to 2.02 ?

And nice source to read about real-world detection ranges of various sonars. Guys from H3 project have made this work long before us :-)

http://mediawiki.advancedgaming.biz/...hp/Sonar_model

Very, very interesting reading

[Molon Labe]

I'd generally be in favor of the cavitation being the biggest factor, but I'd be happy as long as it's possible to make the weapon stealthy, especially when attacking skimmers.

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

Some kind of it is in the mod already. Were you talking about stock DW game ? In the mod every missile launch is very loud event (NL=100) lasting several seconds (longer when launching sub is deep, very short or no at all when it's on the surface), which usually can be observed on passive sonar. Still no autocrew reports of course, like TIW - this is not possible to make for modders. But you can watch passive sonar when you expect enemy missile launches and should see it there as short but very loud effect on the bearing of enemy sub.

Try this.

1. Assign a sonar profile to each missle called "MissileLaunch".
2. Make the profile of "MissileLaunch" 1 distinct frequency.
3. Give each sub a new Sensor called "LaunchDetector" with the ability to detect only the the "MissileLaunch" frequency.
4. Set the "LauncherDetector" number of trackers 0, prefix = "L" and labeled "LaunchTransit".

That way the autocrew will detect the launch transit and place it on the navmap as "LaunchTransit". To help determine the difference between a misslelaunch noise and a normal contact.

This is untested but may work.

[Amizaur]

After some thinking I'll revert things to like they were originally :-). I can't change base noise level without changing resulting max cavitating NL, so I can't increase speed added noise because I would increase torpedo NL overall, decreasing possibility to make them stealthy. Even though difference between slow and fast torpedo would be greater, the actual noise level of slow torp would be greater too.
So I'll revert it to stock game settings, can't find anything better for now. Database NL back to around 82, speed noise +10, only changes left in mod would be that big or thermal torps would be somewhat more noisy than small or electric ones.

edit: I'm confused now because I noticed that torpedo base NLs in the mod were reduced not by 10, but by 20 ! So reverting them to original would mean increase them by 20, huge difference. Maybe first I should add 10 and see if it's enaugh ? :hmm: Don't know to do now, to be honest... Maybe I should make two versions and send them to you Molon Labe for betatest ?
Was it possible to send a "stealthy" (slower, non-cavitating) torpedo in stock game ? Don't think NL around 85 is much stealthy...
And is it possible in real life at all ? For example ADCAP is very noisy torp and not much stealthy even at 40kts...

[Amizaur]

1. Assign a sonar profile to each missle called "MissileLaunch".
2. Make the profile of "MissileLaunch" 1 distinct frequency.
3. Give each sub a new Sensor called "LaunchDetector" with the ability to detect only the the "MissileLaunch" frequency.
4. Set the "LauncherDetector" number of trackers 0, prefix = "L" and labeled "LaunchTransit".

That way the autocrew will detect the launch transit and place it on the navmap as "LaunchTransit". To help determine the difference between a misslelaunch noise and a normal contact.

Seems to be briliant idea !! I'm only not sure if autocrew will use this additional sensor (with sonar autocrew off??) on playable platform, but can't wait to try this Thanx !!!
P.S. I'm a bit less enthusiastic now after few minutes because even now autocrew detects missile launch sometimes, but only sometimes because they lasts so short. And AI platforms detect them nearly always, but don't put them on a link for human players... And if ever, this would work only with autocrew on... Anyway worth to try, sometimes such experiments even unsuccesfull, gives next more fortunate ideas

[darksythe]

still waiting to hear about site needs...

[LuftWolf]

Oooo send it to me too!

I'll help test!

[LuftWolf]

Mike,

We're talking it over. Very soon you'll have the information.

Sorry, we got "sidetracked" by some modding issues.

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

Seems to be briliant idea !! I'm only not sure if autocrew will use this additional sensor (with sonar autocrew off??) on playable platform, but can't wait to try this Thanx !!!

How about this.....

1. give each missle a Active Sonar with a ping of a distinct frequency that give one ping when launched.
2. give each platform an Active Intercept sensor called "launchertransit" and with the ability to detect only the missle ping frequency.
3. Give the "Launchertransit" sensor 0 trackers. Tracker prefix "L" and a name "launchtransit"

Don't know how well this will work.....the tricky part may be changing the doctrine so that a missle is sure to emit the "ping" before it breaches the surface, but it might provide the automated "launchtransit" signal that we are looking for thats independent to whether a person is playing with the Sonar AutoCrew on or off.

Then again, the first method may be a better solution....if it works at all. .... does anyone know if Sonalyst is planning on given us launch transits in the next patch anyway?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

After some thinking I'll revert things to like they were originally :-). I can't change base noise level without changing resulting max cavitating NL, so I can't increase speed added noise because I would increase torpedo NL overall, decreasing possibility to make them stealthy. Even though difference between slow and fast torpedo would be greater, the actual noise level of slow torp would be greater too.
So I'll revert it to stock game settings, can't find anything better for now. Database NL back to around 82, speed noise +10, only changes left in mod would be that big or thermal torps would be somewhat more noisy than small or electric ones.

edit: I'm confused now because I noticed that torpedo base NLs in the mod were reduced not by 10, but by 20 ! So reverting them to original would mean increase them by 20, huge difference. Maybe first I should add 10 and see if it's enaugh ? :hmm: Don't know to do now, to be honest... Maybe I should make two versions and send them to you Molon Labe for betatest ?
Was it possible to send a "stealthy" (slower, non-cavitating) torpedo in stock game ? Don't think NL around 85 is much stealthy...
And is it possible in real life at all ? For example ADCAP is very noisy torp and not much stealthy even at 40kts...

I'm the last person to go to about real life data. I just think it would be cool if you could surprise a skimmer by running a slow torp under the layer and enabling it really close.

[darksythe]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Mike,

We're talking it over. Very soon you'll have the information.

Sorry, we got "sidetracked" by some modding issues.

Ok just let me know once and a while that its still being discussed so i dont have to keep asking :P

[LuftWolf]

BTW, Mike thanks again for keeping on top of us about this... we are both headsdown in the modding stuff, so thinking about stuff like that is tough with the attention deficet issues from spending days buried in the DB editor... kills braincells, really.

[Amizaur]

Originally Posted by Deathblow

How about this.....

1. give each missle a Active Sonar with a ping of a distinct frequency that give one ping when launched.
2. give each platform an Active Intercept sensor called "launchertransit" and with the ability to detect only the missle ping frequency.
3. Give the "Launchertransit" sensor 0 trackers. Tracker prefix "L" and a name "launchtransit"

Very interesting too ! Maybe even more promising, because almost everyone plays with active intercept autocrew, and a ping is nice audio warning that something is happening. The range of this dedicated AI sensor could be set to 20nm for example. Will try this, after correcting current 2.01 torpedo issue, thanx !