WiTP:AE - Guadalcanal. Egan(J) v CCIP(A). BANZAI!

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by TorpX

In my game I have big problems with supply in China. There are "logistical swamps" that do not get supplies. No amount of fussing will remedy this.

I'm having the same problem in a Guadalcanal-scenario, with Townsville and Charters Towers. There's railroad to bring in the supply and there's ample supply down south in Sydney and Brisbane, but I'm still looking at a red supply situation all the time. No amount of tweaking supply draw values, ticking and unticking the "stockpile" box etc. has helped. I finally had to start bringing in supplies by sea because these two bases happen to be my most important 4E bomber bases in the theater.

[Egan]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

I'm having the same problem in a Guadalcanal-scenario, with Townsville and Charters Towers. There's railroad to bring in the supply and there's ample supply down south in Sydney and Brisbane, but I'm still looking at a red supply situation all the time. No amount of tweaking supply draw values, ticking and unticking the "stockpile" box etc. has helped. I finally had to start bringing in supplies by sea because these two bases happen to be my most important 4E bomber bases in the theater.

Shipping by sea is the best, most reliable option for huge parts of Oz, even the relatively built up East coast. Another thing to check is how many places you have set to draw extra supply too. Remember that a base will try and not release supply onwards to the logistics net until it has 3 times it's needed supply. This is true even if you have set the draw values to a higher level. If a base says it needs 1500 it will try and not release any until it reaches 4500, but if you have set that base to draw 5000 supply it will try to hold on and not release until it has 15000. Stockpile will obviously stop releasing any supplies onwards.

Check and make sure that you haven't tweaked the values of some smaller, less important base along the route from Sydney/Brisbane northwards. If you have, set it back to normal. You simply don't get enough supply in this scenario (on either side) to keep all bases out of the red. It shouldn't matter very much for most of them because all those cans of Fosters are needed elsewhere. Another tip is to move out any ships, squadrons or army units in those bases and move them somewhere else. The amount of supply those bases need will drop by quite an amazing amount and supply will no longer be built up. This tip is one that I completely over looked for a long, long time in my full campaign. It's so obvious too.

Of course, it could simply be you don't have enough supply full stop. Sydney only creates 1000 points of supply a day, after all, and I don't remember getting any of those special coastal convoys in the smaller scenarios.

Once you get enough up to Townsville, get it moving to Charter towers by pulsing it by manipulating the supply draw function of both bases. Basically your telling the supply net 'Don't need any more here so send it there'. Doesn't always work but it should slowly get things working.

Above all, don't worry about keeping every base in the black. It ain't gonna happen - not in this scenario!

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Egan

Don't remember it being a problem in the past. well, aside from the usual utterly sucky supply situation in China. Once you lose that link to Burma and the allied supply it gets bad quickly. The sheer number of mouths to feed, the lousy supply network, the tiny amount of supplies that are created...it all adds up quickly.

Is it something new, do you think, or is it something you might only have noticed now you're looking? I know from experience how easy it is to over look something in that theater just because of everything else going on elsewhere, and the sheer hideousness of the Chinese situation.

Sorry I didn't get back to this earlier.

I can't say for sure if it is something that existed from the start. When I started the game, I was rather overwhelmed and China (and logistics generally) didn't get my full attention. I suspect, that things were goofed up at the start, but only became apparent as the starting stockpiles were consumed.

I've been working around the problem for quite a while now. Most places it doesn't seem to have a big effect, but China in another matter. Some places in Australia were messed up, but seem ok now. For example, I had been sending xAKL's into some small bases like Derby, just so they had a 1,000 or so supply as there is no RR communication to the north coast. I noticed that the base had about 100 supply before and after a xAKL unloaded 1,000 or 1,700 supply, it still showed only 106 supply the next day. Of course, there is no rational way to have this rate of consuption. These were isolated bases, with tiny base forces. I kept shoveling in the supplies to see what would happen. Later, thousands of supply just "showed up" there. The same thing happened at Cairns, where I wanted to build up 20,000 for my B-17 group. The supplies seem to disappear, and only after much extra shipping did I get a good stockpile there. The game seems to lose track of certain things. Maybe my quartermasters are selling it all on the black market.

With regard to China, I never did lose control of Rangoon. I can't tell how much goes from Rangoon into China, but it doesn't seem like much. Supply levels in Rangoon don't go down very fast.

Remember that a base will try and not release supply onwards to the logistics net until it has 3 times it's needed supply. This is true even if you have set the draw values to a higher level.

I thought about this and turned off my stockpile at Chungking, and some others. I had about 25,000 sup. there. Next day 10,000 less. Levels went up about 3,500 at Canton, 1,500 at Anyang. I'm not sure where the rest of it went. Part of the problem, I think, is it is very hard to know where it is going. Apparently, it can move in a single day, and is not "on the road".

The locations which seem to be the worst are:
Yenan, Kukong, Paotow, and Nanyang.

Kukong is especially odd, as there is a major rail line to Changsha which has a relatively good supply level. Any units I move there will gradually use up their supply, then start to wither. After I move them out, they get supply again. It makes no sense.

Something else, that bugs me is that in a big stack, some units get full (or even more) supply, while others may get only a little. HQ units always seem to be fully supplied (if there is any), combat units come next, base forces and construction units seem to have the lowest priority.

[Egan]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Sorry I didn't get back to this earlier.

I can't say for sure if it is something that existed from the start. When I started the game, I was rather overwhelmed and China (and logistics generally) didn't get my full attention. I suspect, that things were goofed up at the start, but only became apparent as the starting stockpiles were consumed.

I've been working around the problem for quite a while now. Most places it doesn't seem to have a big effect, but China in another matter. Some places in Australia were messed up, but seem ok now. For example, I had been sending xAKL's into some small bases like Derby, just so they had a 1,000 or so supply as there is no RR communication to the north coast. I noticed that the base had about 100 supply before and after a xAKL unloaded 1,000 or 1,700 supply, it still showed only 106 supply the next day. Of course, there is no rational way to have this rate of consuption. These were isolated bases, with tiny base forces. I kept shoveling in the supplies to see what would happen. Later, thousands of supply just "showed up" there. The same thing happened at Cairns, where I wanted to build up 20,000 for my B-17 group. The supplies seem to disappear, and only after much extra shipping did I get a good stockpile there. The game seems to lose track of certain things. Maybe my quartermasters are selling it all on the black market.

With regard to China, I never did lose control of Rangoon. I can't tell how much goes from Rangoon into China, but it doesn't seem like much. Supply levels in Rangoon don't go down very fast.

I thought about this and turned off my stockpile at Chungking, and some others. I had about 25,000 sup. there. Next day 10,000 less. Levels went up about 3,500 at Canton, 1,500 at Anyang. I'm not sure where the rest of it went. Part of the problem, I think, is it is very hard to know where it is going. Apparently, it can move in a single day, and is not "on the road".

The locations which seem to be the worst are:
Yenan, Kukong, Paotow, and Nanyang.

Kukong is especially odd, as there is a major rail line to Changsha which has a relatively good supply level. Any units I move there will gradually use up their supply, then start to wither. After I move them out, they get supply again. It makes no sense.

Something else, that bugs me is that in a big stack, some units get full (or even more) supply, while others may get only a little. HQ units always seem to be fully supplied (if there is any), combat units come next, base forces and construction units seem to have the lowest priority.

I'm thinking about starting a slow paced Allied GC against the AI in the next few days. I'll keep a look out for supply strangeness in China. It'll be my first time out with the new patch. I'm going to be using one of the Modified scen 1 files the DaBigBabes modders released that has some changes to AAA, ASW and the dreaded late war super-Es and nothing else.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Egan

I'm thinking about starting a slow paced Allied GC against the AI in the next few days. I'll keep a look out for supply strangeness in China. It'll be my first time out with the new patch. I'm going to be using one of the Modified scen 1 files the DaBigBabes modders released that has some changes to AAA, ASW and the dreaded late war super-Es and nothing else.

I should mention I'm playing the Babes Lite (?) scenario, for the reasons you stated, and installed the public Beta patch midway. The supply oddities predate the patch, though.

Something else that is messed up; the one hex in the Philippines, Subic Bay Defenses (Corregidor?), has a Marine inf rgt. I tried to supply them several times, but the game won't let anything unload there. I managed to sneak a xAKL into there, but it couldn't unload, and had the same thing with a sub transport mission. I can use subs to supply other bases, but not that one. I've tried to evac small units via sub, but only once could I load troops on a sub "over the beach". Every time since they can't load. Can you evac troops by sub at a non-base hex?

[Egan]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I should mention I'm playing the Babes Lite (?) scenario, for the reasons you stated, and installed the public Beta patch midway. The supply oddities predate the patch, though.

Something else that is messed up; the one hex in the Philippines, Subic Bay Defenses (Corregidor?), has a Marine inf rgt. I tried to supply them several times, but the game won't let anything unload there. I managed to sneak a xAKL into there, but it couldn't unload, and had the same thing with a sub transport mission. I can use subs to supply other bases, but not that one. I've tried to evac small units via sub, but only once could I load troops on a sub "over the beach". Every time since they can't load. Can you evac troops by sub at a non-base hex?

Hmmm. I don't think I've ever tried. I know landing at non base hexes is an exercise in frustration. Is it the marine unit you're trying to extract? It's not permanently restricted is it? I know that the same unit is returned to you later on in the game. It'll appear on the west coast like all the other marine units. Can you airlift a cadre out? probably no need to do that any more because one of the beta patches made it possible to rebuild a lost unit as long as you can afford the men, supplies and devices.

How big is the base you are trying to unload too? if it's 0 and there isn't any naval support present you might not be able too. I had a problem like that when I was trying to supply a size 0 atoll before I used it for a float plane base.

[TorpX]

There were a number of supply runs my subs made. The evac attempts were:

Two Aus. units that retreated from Rabaul when it fell. One a BF, one the "Gull" battalion (?). It had fought so bravely and delayed the IJA for some time. I wanted to evac them. Gasmata was captured, so it was either write them off, or do some kind of non-base evac. I was flying them supplies (and the Japs bombing them), I figured a sub could take some supplies, then bring back a few, and so on. The subs could unload supplies, and one sub was able to load a few, but for some reason I was never able to do it again. Maybe weather is the reason, but I tried 6 or 8 times. I know it's not a matter or them being restricted, since the menu came up and showed the units when I made the attempt. As I tried to "verify the load" a message flashes something about the unit cannot be loaded today. (It was very fast, so I couldn't be sure of what it said.) Anyway, I later got them out with a small amphib TF made of a few APD's.

The other deal was at Corregidor, with the marines. I think I was able to unload a little fuel earlier in the game, but for some reason, later neither a xAKL nor a SST could unload supply. There are/were some large CD guns there. Frankly, I wished I had moved them into Clark Field at the outset, but I didn't want to abandon the guns. The position seems to be utterly useless. They can't be supplied and they aren't really defending anything. IJN ships transit into Manila bay freely and the Marines are just target practice for IJA bombers. There have been no IJA invasion of this position, but then why would they bother? I consider this unit to be lost, though there are still a handful of survivors there.

If you start a campaign, tell me what happens there.

I've thought about reinstalling the game, but am reluctant to risk losing my campaign now.

[Egan]

A while ago CCIP sent me his password to our game. I sent him mine as well but I don't know whether he has looked. I hadn't got around to it until this morning but I'm glad I did. It's most educational...most educational.

Firstly, I am slightly surprised by his capital ship losses. not one of the three battleship I hit during the great Coral Sea Massacre seem to have gone under. They are, however, all at Sydney with huge amounts of damage and were out of the game by the end. As for carriers, well, I don't think he needed have worried so much after he lost those three flat tops. at the end he had six escort carriers and the Enterprise, all fully functional. In terms of air frames carried, they aren't far off what I had towards the end.

The other main point is Moresby is no where near as well protected as I thought. About 2500 infantry and a lot of secondary units. The battle wouldn't have been easy but I would have taken it with the mass of troops I had prepared.

More later if I remember.

[Egan]

So I finally got around to starting a new AI campaign. Aargh! The dreaded first turn!

*Remember what bases I need to build up in airbase, port and fortifications depending on what vague plans I outlined to myself whilst walking to work yesterday and then changing them on the fly when I realised some of them will be in Japanese hands by the end of turn 3.

*Going through and manually loading all my squadrons with new pilots and trying to remember to set them so that they draw from new replacements BUT ONLY those squadrons I plan to use for training purposes for the next few months.

*Look at China. Go and do something less upsetting.

*Remembering to set all those self same squadrons to proper orders, and heights, and ranges. And then realising that half of them are going to be shipped to Australia in about three turns and ordering them all to fly to SF or San Diego to catch a ship.

*Spending all my beginning balance of PP on something frivolous like a AAA unit and them realising I could have used it to buy out an independent battalion which could have been very useful somewhere early on.

*Building the first supply convoys to head to Australia and then realising I kind of need some of those escorts for combat TFs and why haven't i got any ships going to Alaska or NZ? I'd better scrub the whole lot and start again.

*Realise that a 20 ship AK convoy going to Australia may not be well protected by a single destroyer..

*Look at China. Go and do something less upsetting.

*Changing the prep settings for several dozen units and then realising that none of them are going to go where I planned for them to go. Change them all back to do. Wonder what to do with the Marines. Why are they set for Pago Pago? Is something going to happen in Pago Pago?

*Set my Carriers to run away from anywhere the KB might be/decided to be.

*FORGET YET AGAIN to change Force Z's orders. I will, of course, remember this in turn 2 as the combat replay shows the inevitable happening.

*Set all the Dutch submarines to do something useful.

*Start setting all units in the DEI and Malaysia to Strat mode for transport if they look like they might be useful somewhere else. Pretend that this isn't running away. Notice that half of the units I've set to strat are Militia units who are armed with sharpened vegetables and confusing names. Set them all back again and, in the spirit of Imperialist fairness, send them all somewhere they will die protecting Singapore.

*Look At China. get distracted by the USSR. Wonder why they are in the game. Do everything already done, but in Russia. Wonder when the football starts on the telly.

*Crawl around the map looking for little three aircraft fighter units and Indy Battalions and start trying to do something interesting with them.

*Discover that half the aircraft I've filled up with new pilots are due to be withdrawn in 14 days. Wonder why they are even in the game.

*Fail to spot that several ships I've stuck in long range convoys are due to start being withdrawn in about three weeks, which means I'll end up having to pay a huge PP penalty on them until I can get them back to a base they can withdraw from.

*Start the fun process of weeding out all the cargo ships that can upgrade to important tenders of various sorts and, even more importantly, can upgrade to APA and AKA. Tell them to hide at Mare Island for two years.

* Drink whisky. Look at China and take a deep breath. Order EVERY DARN UNIT IN OPEN GROUND TO RUN AWAY. Spend some time explaining to their leadership why it simply isn't going to possible to supply them with anything at all until late 1944.

*Sit back, relax, and end the turn to start the war. Realise one second too late I forgot India.

WITP:AE. It's a grand game, isn't it?

[TorpX]

He he. Lots of fun!

For me, the worst part was the Philippines. At Pearl the Japs attacked and left. At Luzon, they attacked, and attacked, and attacked, and ....... In my campaign, Singapore and Clark Field both fell on the same day. It was depressing. And I had to worry how fast the IJA could redeploy all the troops to Burma.

When I started, I really disliked China. It was too big, too disorganised, and the IJA too strong. I didn't really know what I was doing. Now that I know how the land fighting business works, I kind of like it.