Japanese Tsunami

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by Bakkels

From east to west coast in that region is about 60 miles, I'll bet there was at least one rusty Russian rocket that could make it that far

And a helluva lot more interceptors over that 60 mile range. You don't stick your weak points and high value targets out front. :P Not, as you say, that it would have helped much, but it would have helped.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Bakkels

So IMO it's not really a design flaw, more a case of poor judgement in the placing of the powerplant. Placing a power plant literally a stones throw away from the coast in a country that's earthquake ridden is the mistake here I think.

Agreed.
We have reactors in my hometown of Bay City, and as far back as I can remember there was very little drama associated with them.

I have no way of knowing what is actually happening inside these plants. Reading varied and feverish news reports does not necessarily tell me anything. There are other reports that downplay the apocalyptic tone. We will have to wait to see what happened here.

No one could have predicted every misfortune that hit this plant. First a quake bigger than any quake in Japan's history took out the power grid. Then a tsunami arrived with unprecedented speed and took out the backup diesel generators. An explosion at one reactor knocked out four of five pumps at another. A valve malfunction blocked water from being pumped into one of the reactors. Gauges failed. Instrument panels failed. A fire erupted in a spent-fuel storage pool in a reactor that had been offline for months.
But just as surprisingly, the disaster hasn't become an apocalypse. Cooling water has been depleted, then replenished. The damaged containers have remained largely intact. Cores are believed to have melted, but only partially, and by some estimates only marginally. Reactor buildings have exploded, but peripherally. External radiation levels have risen, then fallen. Fires have died, then restarted, then died again. Most plant workers have been evacuated, but others have stayed behind to cool the reactors and put out the fires.

[TorpX]

My two cents about the situation:

I think it's pointless to say the disaster was caused by putting the plant on the coast. The technology is inherently dangerous no matter where its located. Other nuclear accidents occured for differing reasons. The next one will probably be caused by something else. Strong earthquakes are rare; human error/incompetence is not. If well built plants in Japan are at risk, I shudder at the thought at what might happen when things go wrong in North Korea, or Iran or wherever.

These reactor cores strike me as being like computer hard drives; its not a question of if, but a question of when. The technology is both complicated and unforgiving. They have all sorts of backup systems designed to cope with the event, but these rely on constant maintainance and expert operators. People have made an anology to plane crashes or auto accidents, but the comparison is not a good one. When you drive off the road, you might be killed, but not your neighbor, your neighbor's family, and the family next to them, etc. A nuclear accident can render a large area radioactive for thousands of years.

It was apparent several days ago, when they started using sea water to cool the reactors, that the situation was very serious. It seems likely that every normal mechanism to deal with the problem had failed or been exhausted. From what I've learned, this would only be done if the reactors had already been damadged beyond use or normal mechanisms could not cope with the crysis. Little definative information has been released by the company or government. I can offer a guess why. It seems likely that fires or explosions have compromised the controls and sensors that would normally be used in this situation as well as at least one containment vessel. The authorities either don't have a clear idea of just what is happening, or they do know, but have decided to say as little as possible, fearing a general panic. The immediate areas around these reactors are possibly too hazardous for the crews to properly evaluate the status of the (2 or 3?) units. Recent reports of increasing the allowable radiation dosage for personnel, and using helocoptors to try to "hose down" parts of these plants, suggest they are truly desperate. I can only hope they have made or are making preperations for building a last ditch containment of these reactors. I would guess this would require significant manpower and material and could not be done at short notice. Perhaps, the people in charge are reluctant to go down this road as it could well mean ordering workers to their deaths.

All in all, it is an appalling situation.


My information is no better than anyone else's. But the sparse, and conflicting nature of the information comming out, is worrying in itself. If using a generator to pump in some seawater was a solution, they most likely would have stabalized the situation by now.

[Bilge_Rat]

On the issue of location, let's not forget that Japan is a small country. Area of 145,000 square miles but 73% of that is forested and mountainous and can't be used, so 127,000,000 persons , plus farms and cities are packed in to 40,000 square miles, which is about the size of the state of Maine...that does not leave you much choice in where you put the power plants.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Agreed.
We have reactors in my hometown of Bay City, and as far back as I can remember there was very little drama associated with them.

I have no way of knowing what is actually happening inside these plants. Reading varied and feverish news reports does not necessarily tell me anything. There are other reports that downplay the apocalyptic tone. We will have to wait to see what happened here.

Always best to play down apocalyptic predictions, even as the plume reaches the US tomorrow, minor increases in radiation probably would be good for us all. In the end, kind of hard to tell millions to pack up and leave in Japan, better to lie and reassure them.

I see the navy has pulled back 50 more miles.

[zaza]

Sapporo is not,but
news says ,lack of food and lack of gas around Tohoku area now.
Today north part of Japan were very cold.

I hope they get better situation as soon as possible.


By the way, do you know that Fukushima Nuclear power plant for whose ?


As you know " Fukushima Nuclear power plants" locate in Fukushima prefecture,
but electric are not supply servicing for who lives in Fukushima !!!

"Fukushima nuclear plants" are belong to
"TOKYO denryoku (Tokyo electric power company)".
Tokyo denryoku supply servicing for not Fukushima area but around TOKYO area.

Fukushima area belong to "TOHOKU denryoku （Tohoku electric power）" .


As you can see, the people who lives in Fukushima area, none of electricity
service from FUKUSHIMA NUKUCLEAE power plants !!!







I think because of lack of my english skills, hard to understand.
I apologize.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by zaza

Sapporo is not,but
news says ,lack of food and lack of gas around Tohoku area now.
Today north part of Japan were very cold.

I hope they get better situation as soon as possible.


By the way, do you know that Fukushima Nuclear power plant for whose ?


As you know " Fukushima Nuclear power plants" locate in Fukushima prefecture,
but electric are not supply servicing for who lives in Fukushima !!!

"Fukushima nuclear plants" are belong to
"TOKYO denryoku (Tokyo electric power company)".
Tokyo denryoku supply servicing for not Fukushima area but around TOKYO area.

Fukushima area belong to "TOHOKU denryoku (Tohoku electric power)" .


As you can see, the people who lives in Fukushima area, none of electricity
service from FUKUSHIMA NUKUCLEAE power plants !!!







I think because of lack of my english skills, hard to understand.
I apologize.

First of all, Arigatou (in my best Japanese) for the update Glad Sapporo is fine.

In my opinion it doesn't really matter where the locals get their power from. Power is power, wherever it was produced. And Tokyo has to have some power as well, so why shouldn't they get it from Fukushima?

And don't worry about your English. My Japanese limits itself to "konnichiwa," "sayonara," "arigatou," "biru" and "nihonshu"

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Always best to play down apocalyptic predictions, even as the plume reaches the US tomorrow, minor increases in radiation probably would be good for us all. In the end, kind of hard to tell millions to pack up and leave in Japan, better to lie and reassure them.

I see the navy has pulled back 50 more miles.

I bet one month'S income that the authorities still have not revealed their real data they had about Three Mile Island. And never will in the forseeable future.

Like the cigarette industry some years ago seriously tried to convince congress hearings that smoking is not damaging health, and claimed the harming effect of the variopus poisons in tobacco never have been proven

Meanwhile we know from germany that in the area around nuclear reactors the child mortality is statistically signifcantly increased. The government still insists that this is not so - but exmainations run by idnependent sources and researchers who did their own analysis simply prove the government lying.

And until this very day no body so far has ever come up with an idea of what to do with that radiating nuclear disposal. We do not have - WE DO NOT HAVE - a technology or a knowledge allowing us to forsee tectonic and geological developements in certain areas and layers of sediemnt for the coming tens of thousands of years. We do not have the ability to form containers and sealed capsules to isolate storngly radiating material for such time periods without the material eroding even if not being exposed to mopisture, sgock, chemical agents etc.

We do not even have the certainty that the symbology we use today and by which we paint the words "Caution Radioactivty - Do Not Open" in letters onto the containers that make a sense to us and form words with a meaning, still will be understood in some thousand years from now on.

Many people are uncritical about these facts, and do not take them serious - for their own present comfortability. Truth is, many of them simply do not care a bit about what is coming after their lives have ended - Nach uns die Sintflut.

I am not hysterical or phobic about nuclear energy, but I also refuse to ignore the inherent risks. That'S why I argue for a leave from nuclear energy within a reaosnabvle timeframe - to allow us to create alternative energies, nevertheless not allowing profit interests of the few compromising security interests of the many. No more new reactors being build, I say, and 10-12 years for the lasdt excisting reactors getting switched off one by one, the oldest first, the newest last. We have no solution for the storage problem, the more reactors are being run, the more risks accumulate, low-level intoxication by radioactivity is a problem harming more people then most of us do realise, and the industry behind this business cannot be trusted at all.

I also recommend to research for yourself a bit about the conditions under which radioactive ore gets produced in some parts of the third world. If you do not mind, then you can also safely refuse to worry about blood diamonds, Bophal and and child labour.

Nuclear energy is not really clean energy. In a way it is the most expensive, most costly and most dirty energy there is. You only have to look close enough, and far ahead into the future, instead of just being fixiated on the present moment.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Nuclear energy is not really clean energy. In a way it is the most expensive, most costly and most dirty energy there is. You only have to look close enough, and far ahead into the future, instead of just being fixiated on the present moment.

You are not looking far enough in to the future. Eventually all the Uranium will decay to lead.

[Type941]

on thing i gotta say - looking at how japanese people handle themselves in light of this disaster (the dignity, no looting, no robbing, crime hikes, agression, etc) - it's extremely admirable and gives hope humanity has a chance. Because really all are animals deep down and fact that they have so much bravery and dignity in face of this it's unreal.

Just comparing this to the looted car dealerships in Egypt or looting of Iraq Museum or Katrina looting in New Orleans... we're may be not all the same underneath after all.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Type941

on thing i gotta say - looking at how japanese people handle themselves in light of this disaster (the dignity, no looting, no robbing, crime hikes, agression, etc) - it's extremely admirable and gives hope humanity has a chance. Because really all are animals deep down and fact that they have so much bravery and dignity in face of this it's unreal.

Just comparing this to the looted car dealerships in Egypt or looting of Iraq Museum or Katrina looting in New Orleans... we're may be not all the same underneath after all.

As I understand it there is a huge cultural difference. For instance, if someone in Japan accidentally sets their kitchen on fire while they are cooking, they are to apologize to everyone in the neighborhood, and to every one of the emergency workers who came to put the fire out.

If anyone can help clarify that I'd be grateful. I learned about it in a college technical course which had nothing to do with Japanese culture.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Type941

on thing i gotta say - looking at how japanese people handle themselves in light of this disaster (the dignity, no looting, no robbing, crime hikes, agression, etc) - it's extremely admirable and gives hope humanity has a chance. Because really all are animals deep down and fact that they have so much bravery and dignity in face of this it's unreal.

Just comparing this to the looted car dealerships in Egypt or looting of Iraq Museum or Katrina looting in New Orleans... we're may be not all the same underneath after all.

There was a time not too long ago where the Japanese considered them selves a superior race to the rest of the world (it was fashionable at the time to think so). They might have been the one who was right.

A society that survives so long (we are talking nearly an ancient civilization here) intact is bound to be more advanced in some way.

If they weren't so darn conservative and traditionalist they would have conquered the universe by now...

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Platapus

In a BWR the control rods are raised from the bottom instead of dropping from the top.

Semantics. But thanks for explaining.

Under normal circumstances, yes, the application of the control rods will prevent further fission. However, it will have no affect on the heat being present or even continuing after the fission is stopped. The problem is that if the reactor has a large void (negitive) coefficient , the increased heat (when the cooling system fails), may overcome the absorption effects of the control rod.

If we knew that, why wasn't the reactor designed with more control rods, or why wasn't there a system installed to dump non-fissile materials into the core in the event of a power failure? Why not simply place a container full of dirt over the core that will release its contents upon loss of electrical current? I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity but you know what I mean, right?

In plain words, the hotter the reactor gets, the less effective the moderator will be. Given enough heat, the control rods may be of minimal use.

Then why design a system that would allow temperatures to increase to that point in the first place without flooding the reactor with neutron-absorbing materials? I figure I'm either missing something here or GE went ahead and designed a system that they knew was not failsafe...or perhaps they are simply incompetent.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by krashkart

As I understand it there is a huge cultural difference. For instance, if someone in Japan accidentally sets their kitchen on fire while they are cooking, they are to apologize to everyone in the neighborhood, and to every one of the emergency workers who came to put the fire out.

If anyone can help clarify that I'd be grateful. I learned about it in a college technical course which had nothing to do with Japanese culture.

Wouldn't be surprised, I heard that a lot of the people being pulled out of the wreckage were apologising to their rescuers.

[Biggles]

While the world concentrates on the nuclear disaster, victims of the tsunami and the earthquake elsewhere are having major problems with the winter. Several elderly civilians have died from the cold, according to Swedish newspapers.

This picture breaks my heart, every time I see it...