Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[desertstriker]

Denis why don't you share your knowledge discuss with us and hold off the insults we all could learn something if we have open minds and willing to converse.
Also some of us have a serious passion for submarines of WW2 and gather knowledge that will soon be abandonded by many and work to make this game better and more realistic.
As to your "database" why even mention it? To me you are saying we are not worth your time in which case why even comment or post? Also I can think of a few people who have a DB to rival yours.

Now for the constructive arguments for your posts you neglected to mention settings for such torpedos and weather in #3616
and the torpedo crises existed up to, during, and after the norewgian campaign (after with the T3s).

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by desertstriker

Denis why don't you share your knowledge discuss with us and hold off the insults we all could learn something if we have open minds and willing to converse.
Also some of us have a serious passion for submarines of WW2 and gather knowledge that will soon be abandonded by many and work to make this game better and more realistic.
As to your "database" why even mention it? To me you are saying we are not worth your time in which case why even comment or post? Also I can think of a few people who have a DB to rival yours.

Now for the constructive arguments for your posts you neglected to mention settings for such torpedos and weather in #3616
and the torpedo crises existed up to, during, and after the norewgian campaign (after with the T3s).

Setting torpedoes not need, so no one torpedo not run under targets. If you need weather - so find this himself.

I mention about database, so many peoples not know what was really in real war and know what write in books various autors, who made works with grants and write what need for people who made grant. My english poor, so I write as I can.

About other peoples with databases - I know 2 people who have similar (and less) databases, but their databases not large like me and their databases are censored. May be you not know, but in West forbidden write really soviet war during WWII and russian war during wwI in sea. And all data in western sources not true total.

About torpedo crisis I not write, so my english not allow write need text right.

Hi Denis,

If you interested in torpedo crisis this is very good article IMO if you haven't read it yet:

http://eaglescholar.georgiasouthern...._201005_MA.pdf

[desertstriker]

In what way cencored I would expect more cencorsip in the soviet union than anything. Eitherway not everybody writes for grants as you say those are the scientists who need to have expensive toys. Most autors of history just care about getting the truth out .
Either way my intreast is in the GERMANS in world war 2 I care very little of the soviets because they never intreasted me the allies well same as the soviets. Why you may ask because the allies are glorified the soviets well never knew why I never was intreasted in them

As for it being "forbiden" to write about the soviets I just don't think it is a subject writen about often because of the communist accusations that are bound to fly.

EDIT: @Montekidlo thanks for adding info about the torpedo crises going to check to see if i have it in my personal collection.

[Leitender]

About errors depth after long submarged I can say, that it is wrong. Mainly says, that in Norvegian campain was this errors. But I find less then 10 sich attacks. All other falty attacks was so have defective impact and influence pistols and missing during attacks. It is easy can see read describe every attacks.

The norwegian circumstances (magnetic fields) led to premature explosions of the magnetic pistol, so they had been forbitten to use. But the dudes remained and there was a "torpedo commission" started by the BdU which found out what i wrote. There was even a process of the "Reichskriegsgericht" (war court) where some responsibles had been convicted.

I´m sorry to say, but you don´t need only statistical data, you also need qualititive data, although i see your point, that quantitative data can lead to different results. This may become interesting.

I regret to have only german sources, maybe there are translations of what the torpedo commission found out, because i read that the american submarines suffered from the exact same problem.

http://www.u-boot-archiv.de/krieg/boote_ohne_waffe.html

PS: Just saw: already a english source posted. Sorry for the double.

[LGN1]

Hi denis_469,

I do not fully understand what you say, so please forgive me if I misunderstand some of your points.

Here are some comments:

• I'm glad for you that you have such a large database. Unfortunately, I don't have access to it. If you read my older posts in this thread, you will realize that at several instances I asked for information/help/input because of missing/unclear data. So I think you are wrong when you write 'If you not wish read orginal documents'.
• I understand that you cannot upload the whole database. However, you might pick one or two documents and upload them or reference them to support your opinion.
• I don't mind if people write their opinion, however, this can be done in a polite way.
• I don't have any problems with your information, but I'm not glad about your phrasing. Actually, I'm glad about your comment concerning the periscope vibration. Indeed, it seems bluring happened only at higher speeds and many sources apply the XXI problems to all boats (BTW, this report mentions 7Kn: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-413INT.htm). I will adapt my hsie.ini file accordingly (in stock SH3 you can make 12 knots while snorkeling with a VIIC without any impact on the scope. Realistic?)

Anyway, if you have good information/sources please share them with us. I guess there are some jewels in the 102577 submarine attacks.

Regards, LGN1

Edit: Concerning your comment 'I see that you made good (total) mod and thank you for this', I must say that although I spent some time on this mod, the most work by far was done by H.Sie! He did all the hard work and spent an incredible amount of time for this. All praise should go to him!

Originally Posted by denis_469

You not right about discussion. Simple my database subarine attacks have 102577 submarine attacks, and, as I know, no one people in world not have this data total.
In my opinion good and interesting discussion must be with people who have data about 100000 submarine attacks (+/-), but other people with this information is abscent total. Discussion with other peoples would be like with you. You not know so data and say, that you need original documents instead himself find this document.
I understand, that you wish read original documents about attacks and say you, that you need himself read submarine patrol logs from varios countryes. But you not made this. If you not wish read orginal documents, so when I can say you information. If you wish, that I place this documents, so not. So orginal documents abourt US submarines, for example, have size near 80 Gb. So i can not u/l this documents.

I see that you made good (total) mod and thank you for this, but my opinion I write before.

Sorry with my open opinion about you words that I not wish open discussion. May be you not glad read that I write now. So sorry.

LGN1 what value will u set here:

Speed above which peris are moved down automatically. ?

Range: [1.0 - 20.0]. Default: 7.0

[LGN1]

Originally Posted by Montekidlo

LGN1 what value will u set here:

Speed above which peris are moved down automatically. ?

Range: [1.0 - 20.0]. Default: 7.0

Hi Montekidlo,

I think I will use 7.0 for the onset of vibrations and 9.0 for moving down the periscope.

Regards, LGN1

Upon new findings I will too adjust my periscope blur.

Thanks LGN1

[LGN1]

denis_469,

since you have such a large database and have mentioned the oxygen issue, you might help us to clarify this issue once and for all. We had quite a few discussions on this issue, but could not find a definite answer. A good starting point is the original VIIC manual. It can be found here:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm

On page 84 the air purification system is described. Important points are:

• "Purification system: removing CO2 by means of sodium hydroxide cartridges": I'm not aware how sodium hydroxide cartridges could release oxygen.
• "Renewal system: bleeding O2 from oxygen flasks."
• In the whole document I could not find a single reference to a machine/device that could produce pure oxygen to refill the flasks.

Given these informations I conclude that the submerged endurance was indeed limited. But your earlier post ("And in all subs was chemical regeneretion O2 in boats. This chemical components easy reloading in sea from other boats in real life.") seems to contrast this (and the original VIIC manual does not include any statement about 'chemical regeneration O2 in boats'). Can you please clarify/comment on this issue? Did it change during the war (the manual is from 1940, I guess)? Thanks!



Regards, LGN1

[Vince82]

First of I like to say that I can see why it's annoying when you're an expert on the subject and people are constantly requiring all sorts of proof instead of asking if they could please explain something they don't understand.

And the second thing is that people shouldn't be so sensitive when someone is critical towards certain aspects of a mod. There is also a difference in language and culture.

You only have to read the article that Montekidlo posted to see what that can lead to...

Originally Posted by Montekidlo

Hi Denis,

If you interested in torpedo crisis this is very good article IMO if you haven't read it yet:

http://eaglescholar.georgiasouthern...._201005_MA.pdf

It's is a very valuabale document. Good job posting it.

Myself I'm researching the torpedo crisis so I know a lot about it. Definitely not everthing tho, so please let me know if you think I'm making a wrong statement somewhere. I'm all about getting the most accurate simulation and I'm very much interested in the tactical aspects of the u-boat war.

The h.sie patch I think it's one of the best mods around here. The torpedo fix is a very good tool to simulate the torpedo crisis. However just using the default settings will not give you the result you want. But it's possible to change those settings whenever needed, that's in the manual.

The confusion about the depthkeeping problem is caused by the following:
It's how you interpreted the information you got.
Depthkeeping problems did exist in the TII torpedo, this is very well documentated. And it was definitely an issue. The thing is that during the Norway campaign the BdU was well aware of this problem. So commanders were instructed to fire their torpedoes at 2, 3 or 4m depth depending on the seastate and wind so there wouldn't be any surface runners. And that way there was not so much a problem that the torpedo was running a little bit deeper than set, that was already anticipated. So if a ship had a draught of lets say 7 meters it would still hit.

Why was torpedo failure still happening during the Norway campaign? This was due to technical problems with the impact pistols (read Denis post about the ktb's the torpedoes did hit but they where duds). BdU didn't know the impact pistols were faulty. After the campaign this problem was fixed.

Turbulance leading to torpedo failure is something completely new to me aswell. So I agree with Denis when he's critical towards that. But there is still the issue of surface runners in combination with proximity fuses that didn't work and depthkeeping problems, which made hitting ships with a shallow draught impossible. But you also got to read the manual that comes with patch, because it does state that it's mechanics aren't realistic, but it's attempting to simulate realism. Torpedoes wouldn't run 25m deeper than set, but with the patch they do to simulate a torpedo failure (duds included) or a surface runner.

EDIT: Reading through the article posted by Montekildo I see that turbulance could actually cause failure in several ways. But I would say that it wasnt that much of a factor. And something else I learned, SHV has a mod based on the article:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=472

[Leitender]

Vince_82

Depthkeeping problems did exist in the TII torpedo, this is very well documentated.

What about the TI (G7a)? Afaik, both use the same depthkeeping apparatus "TA1" (see e.g. Wright, p. 20)? And both used the same pistol "Pi1".

Do you agree that the torpedo crisis consisted of mainly 3 parts:

1. too sensitive magnetic pistols and vibrations led to many premature explosions

2. faulty construction of the impact pistol led to torpedo rebounds

3. higher pressure in the torpedoes led to wrong (to deep) steering.

And if so, would you explain us in which way you use h.sie´s fix?

However just using the default settings will not give you the result you want. But it's possible to change those settings whenever needed, that's in the manual.

That would be very interesting.

To be honest, i don´t use the torpedo failure fix. Instead, i changed the "realval"(=real value) setting of the torpedo depth dial randomly to up to 3 meters deeper than displayed by using the sh3 commander (time dependant). So this minor "under steering" effect is simulated as it was in reality.

Last point: "surface runners". If the torpedoes run at the surface there occured prematures. But why did the run at the surface? Has this anything to do with the above mentioned points? I ask because in no source i read anything about such a problem in combination with the torpedo crisis.

Thank you for an Answer. It would really be appreciated.

Sincerly

[Vince82]

That's a lot. Yes, I agree and let me discuss three things:

1.

What about the TI (G7a)? Afaik, both use the same depthkeeping apparatus "TA1" (see e.g. Wright, p. 20)?

This still puzzles me. I'm trying to understand what did exactly happen, during the torpedo crisis. I know a lot about it, but I'm not an expert.

I have some sources that definitely claim that there was a difference between the two types. But why there should be a difference is unclear. It doesn't really make sense to me tbh. I'm very interested in more information about it.


2.

would you explain us in which way you use h.sie´s fix?

Quote: However just using the default settings will not give you the result you want. But it's possible to change those settings whenever needed, that's in the manual.
However just using the default settings will not give you the result you want. But it's possible to change those settings whenever needed, that's in the manual.
That would be very interesting.

That's an obvious question, because it would be very interesting know indeed.

I'm working on it! I'm preparing a sheet with all the dates and settings (which will be open to discussion ofcourse). Last patrol I was still using the default settings, but next patrol I'm planning to adjust them.

Let me give you an example. My next patrol is starting in October 1940, well after the Norway campaign. That date Uboats didn't use magnetic pistols very much because it still didn't work very well. However the Pi1 impact pistol (pi G7H) was introduced, this was actually a new and improved pistol, at the start of the war they used the Pi G7a or Pi G7a (A+B).

from the hsie.ini:
;-----------------------------------------------------------------------
; Torpedo Failure Fix.
;---------------------
; Failure rates (assuming torpedo set to depth = 0.4*windspeed or deeper)
; Impact Pistol, until June 1940. Range: [0.00 - 0.99]. Default: 0.25
Val3=0.25
; Impact Pistol, June'40-June'42. Range: [0.00 - 0.99]. Default: 0.10
Val4=0.10 (something between 0.10 and 0.20, should be fairly low)
; Impact Pistol, after June 1942. Range: [0.00 - 0.99]. Default: 0.03
Val5=0.03
; Magnet Pistol, until June 1940. Range: [0.00 - 0.99]. Default: 0.15
Val6=0.15
; Magnet Pistol, June'40-June'42. Range: [0.00 - 0.99]. Default: 0.10
Val7=0.35 (between 0.30-0.60, should be high)
; Magnet Pistol, after June 1942. Range: [0.00 - 0.99]. Default: 0.02
Val8=0.02
;-------------------------

I'm planning to adjust this file every time between patrols, when needed. Also I'm planning to use only impact pistols (using the i/m-swith) during my next patrol. Because torpedoes either had impact pistols only or commanders were forbidden to use the magnetic fuse. And adjust my torpedo loadout whenever that would be realistic.


3. About the surface runners, it's in the h.sie patch manual and you'll find more about it when you read 'wolves without teeth'.

[Vince82]

About the depthkeeping. Now I assume that both the TI and the TII had this problem at the start of the war. So I agree with you on that one aswell. The TI was used until the end of the war (but with improved depthkeeping later on). The TII was replaced by the TIII. And it was difficult if not impossible to have a TI with a Pi2 pistol (because a Pi2 needs a battery). This means that depthkeeping for a TI wasnt absolutely critical because it wasn't used with a magnetic pistol between mid 1940 and late 1943. While the TIII was fitted with a magnetic fuse when it was introduced in 1942. edit

Never mind about that. TI and TII are the same when it comes to depth keeping problems. This means is possible to get a very realistic simulation of the torpedo crisis if you put everything together.

-Randomisation of depth using sh3 cmdr. (Like you are using)
-Limiting yourself to using realistic settings for the i/m switch (or mod).
-The torpedo fix to simulate surface runners (depending on sea state), and technical malfunctions. Maybe this should be adjusted to 4m max instead of 6m.
-A sheet with dates and settings.

[J0313]

Originally Posted by desertstriker

In what way cencored I would expect more cencorsip in the soviet union than anything. Eitherway not everybody writes for grants as you say those are the scientists who need to have expensive toys. Most autors of history just care about getting the truth out .
Either way my intreast is in the GERMANS in world war 2 I care very little of the soviets because they never intreasted me the allies well same as the soviets. Why you may ask because the allies are glorified the soviets well never knew why I never was intreasted in them

As for it being "forbiden" to write about the soviets I just don't think it is a subject writen about often because of the communist accusations that are bound to fly.

EDIT: @Montekidlo thanks for adding info about the torpedo crises going to check to see if i have it in my personal collection.

I take offense to your comment about the Allies being glorified. First my Grandfather who was also my adopted Father served on the USS Grenadier during WW2. He made all 6 war patrols on this boat and was there when a Jap plane damaged them so badly that they had to scuttle the sub and were subsequently taken prisoner. So he got to spend the next 2 and a half years being starved, beaten and forced into slave labor in a steel mill in Yawata Japan. Yes, the Allies should be glorified. They stopped 1 mad man in Germany and kept a nation from enslaving most of Europe. Then they stopped another group of mad men on the other side of the world and kept them from enslaving most of Asia. Lets not forget the 6 million Jews that were murdered by Hitler and his cronies and the millions of Chinese and other Asians that were murdered and enslaved by Tojo and his Bunch. Also the several hundred thousand Allied POW's who were also murdered by the Japanese Empire.