WiTP:AE - Guadalcanal. Egan(J) v CCIP(A). BANZAI! - Page 24

Fincuan · 05-03-12, 11:49 AM

Nah it's quality intelligence reports à la WITP:AE again

USA hasn't probably even produced that many Lightnings by this stage.

Egan · 05-03-12, 03:15 PM

What surprised me was the proportion of support squads to combat squads that were disabled/damaged in the raid, Especially considering the only the named unit in the report was the 1st Australian who are a combat unit IIRC.

Having said that, I have felt for some time that a large proportion of the Allied troops at Moresby were non-combat. If these reports are even a little bit accurate I guess it ties together. I don't mean accurate in terms of casualty numbers, of course, because that is impossible to gauge without better recon, but in the proportions damaged.

I think.

TorpX · 05-04-12, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egan

What surprised me was the proportion of support squads to combat squads that were disabled/damaged in the raid, ....

I wouldn't read too much into this. When the IJN bombard me at Mo, this is what happens. It makes sense, too. The support troops, mechanics, and arty/AAA crews take the hits; the infantry are in fighting positions outside town, and are mostly spared.

Egan · 05-05-12, 05:23 AM

No, you're right of course. But it does correlate with what I already thought was likely.

I wonder where his carriers are at? If they are down at Townsville I wonder if they would have enough time to pounce on the Yamato gang as they attempt to scarper.

Egan · 05-05-12, 04:12 PM

As this game winds to an end I've been looking at getting back into a proper Japan campaign. I have plenty of ideas for strategies I'd like to try (against the AI to start with) but the dreaded economy management just looks like an insurmountable barrier to me.

This campaign has been an eye opener for me in terms of what the Japanese are capable of. The last six months of '42 and the first few of '43 are an interesting period to play as it is really the end of Japanese inpunity and the beginning of the US build up. In the course of a few months, as I've said before, I've marveled at the growth of George's forces; not necessarily in terms of boots in the mud, or even warships, but in the air. The relative paucity of the Japanese ship building is a force multiplier of sorts for the US as well. In my last full campaign as the Allies losing a few destroyers, cruisers or even carriers was not war ending proposition. For the Japanese it can be.

I think, in order to remain competitive into '44 a Japanese player has to be pretty darn solid in the choices he makes in '42. I think anyone sticking to the historical script will only be bringing defeat onto himself. In a campaign where the Japanese player may only have automatic point victory to aim at in order to win, does throwing valuable resources into the Solomons and New Guinea constitute a sensible or even practical strategy? Is there any point in even taking Moresby?

I'm coming to the conclusion that a Solomons campaign in the full game would only make sense if the end aim is to strangle US supply lines ahead of a full on invasion of Australia. And to do that, taking Noumea, Guadalcanal and Moresby will never really be enough because all you are doing is lengthening those convoy routes. What would you have to take, then? New Zealand? Samoa? Anywhere where netties can operate at distance I think. Create a potent aerial threat and force the Allied player into needing to patrol routes with carriers might be a viable tactic even though, eventually, he'll be using CVEs for convoy support. On the other side of Oz, i think one would have to take Perth in order to halt the transport of supplies from Capetown.

And if the invasion of Australia is not your eventual goal, would all that material not be better off elsewhere? I think Rabaul has to be taken in any event, perhaps even Shortlands (and building the airbases on both to maximum) because they are a valid line of defence for Truk, and Netties can easily atrit shipping heading up the coast to the straights of thingumy..well, maybe not easily but it can be done.

Just thinking out loud is all. Can you tell I've go nothing to do tonight?

TorpX · 05-06-12, 01:28 AM

I'm kind of sorry to see this game come to an end. It has been educational.

Quote:

I think, in order to remain competitive into '44 a Japanese player has to be pretty darn solid in the choices he makes in '42. I think anyone sticking to the historical script will only be bringing defeat onto himself. In a campaign where the Japanese player may only have automatic point victory to aim at in order to win, does throwing valuable resources into the Solomons and New Guinea constitute a sensible or even practical strategy? Is there any point in even taking Moresby?
..............

I think you have some good points here. I don't think Port Mo or most other objectives are worth crippling loses. I guess it comes down to the question of what does Imperial Japan really need to do? I wonder if the victory point scheme is the most appropriate. How much benefit is there in taking all sorts of far-flung bases and territories, if the points gained in their capture will later be lost anyway?

From what I have seen in my own campaign against the Imperial AI, the game isn't that smart. I guess it needs some "help". I don't know if I would ever try another grand campaign, but I would have to do something to make IJ more threatening.

Egan · 05-06-12, 10:15 AM

I don't mind the concept of Auto-vic, to be honest. It gives the Japanese player something tangible to work towards rather than just expanding until '43 and then consolidating until the Allied side whacks him into submission. But that's exactly the thing I was saying: A Japanese player needs to know from the outset exactly what he is going to do and must be able to stick to it whilst remaining flexible enough to deal with anything the Allies through at him. Although the Allies should have a solid plan to work against too, they have the flexibility to modify strategy on the fly and adapt to the tactical situation better than the Japanese can.

I agree that all those far flung bases that give up a handful of points need to be ignored by the Japanese player unless they provide some form of security. even in an auto-vic game, the primary reason for taking real estate should always be what a certain base can provide to your strategy, not how many points it can provide. Luckily enough, those bases that are going to be your primary targets are going to be the ones most likely to provide the most points anyway. It's not a very elegant system, but i think the game would be worse off without it.

Fincuan · 05-06-12, 10:40 AM

For a pretty interesting Japanese strategy see the latest PzB vs. Andymac AAR at Matrixgames. Not only is PzB playing the Japanese side to what looks like a "running out the clock" victory, but he also thinks out aloud quite a lot. Good thoughts on strategy in general.

Egan · 05-06-12, 11:07 AM

Another one which looks like it might be very interesting is PanzerJaeger Hortlund's new AAR against Canoerebel. He's basically trying to put into practice some of the things I've talked about in my last few posts. It looks like it's going to be a very interesting game.

Egan · 05-06-12, 01:40 PM

You know, I've got lots of things I should be getting on with; work, looking for a new job, doing some writing, setting up the blog I keep willing myself to start. I've a pile of tunes I need to get beat gridded before I use them in Traktor, I've got to get working on learning how to use Ableton properly. I've got a map for CMBN I've been trying to get finished for what feels like a year (actually, it is a year...) and I've got to make dinner.

...and yet, all I keep thinking about is moving virtual aircraft carriers around little blue hexes.

Worse. Than. Crack.

I'm hoping CCIP will get the last turn back to me sometime in the next few days so at least I can jot down some thoughts and conclusions on what I learned from the match. At least, I think it's the last turn. Given how often I screw up the dates it might only be the middle of October game-side and there's another three months to play.

Falkirion · 05-06-12, 06:16 PM

I can understand taking Australia as an objective but wouldn't it be better swing down through Asia proper? Keep the Chinese bottled up, get Singapore/Indonesia, take Fremantle and then overland it to Darwin/East coast?

That's one of Australia's flaws if you ask me, weve got a very undefendable north/west of the country. You can land forces anywhere along our northern/western reaches and we probably wont know about it until you're on top of Freo/Darwin.

Egan · 05-07-12, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falkirion

I can understand taking Australia as an objective but wouldn't it be better swing down through Asia proper? Keep the Chinese bottled up, get Singapore/Indonesia, take Fremantle and then overland it to Darwin/East coast?

That's one of Australia's flaws if you ask me, weve got a very undefendable north/west of the country. You can land forces anywhere along our northern/western reaches and we probably wont know about it until you're on top of Freo/Darwin.

The problem with going overland from anywhere point A in Australia to point B is that you might very well need more time than '41 to '46 to achieve anything..

And of course, as the Japanese supply lines lengthen, the Allied ones shorten. It's all made up of just about the worst terrain to move over, too. Mountain covered Jungle is probably the absolute worst in the game but the combination of rocks and desert that makes up most of Australia in the game is pretty awful as well.

I have bad memories of simply trying to keep Darwin supplied in my last campaign. For example, airbases that are within range of each other are like hen's teeth outside of the west coast so you are probably going to be forced onto either the rail or road network, and they are virtually non existent in many places, or so badly developed you won't get very far on them. The Japanese don't even have the advantage of control over rail hubs which means that the trains are going to be unusable until you take them, and even if you do, or stick to the roads, once the Allies get enough bombers, they can cause horrific numbers to your troops who are going to be stuck in strategic movement mode and traveling, for the most part, without any air cover.

But yeah, you need to take Singers and the DEI (you need to anyway because without the oil you get from the DEI your game is going to last about 18 months-two years tops,) and then take Freemantle/Perth. In the north you need Darwin to stop the Allies using it as a jumping off point for invading the DEI and that means taking more bases in order to safeguard your position.

Still, you might not have to take everything in Australia in order to win on points. I remember seeing an analysis (I forget by whom,) which showed how taking several bases in the North East and then launching a massive Strategic bombing campaign on the industrial hubs further south could bestow a massive amount of points. It's an interesting strategy and one I don't think I've ever seen done. I think if i was going to try a Japanese campaign I'd like to try that.

0rpheus · 05-08-12, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX

I'm kind of sorry to see this game come to an end. It has been educational.

Seconded. I've very much enjoyed reading both sides of this AAR, so cheers Egan (and CCIP). Hope to see another from you soon

Egan · 05-10-12, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Seconded. I've very much enjoyed reading both sides of this AAR, so cheers Egan (and CCIP). Hope to see another from you soon

Well, cheers guys, it's nice to know people got something out of it. It's (mostly) fun to write, although this one suffered from more than a few of ythe old 'nothing happened today' posts.

Anyways, that's been nearly a fortnight since I last heard from CCIP so I'm assuming he's lying on a beach in tropical Canada somewhere (Canada has beaches, right? I'm assuming the Mounties have to stop somewhere..) and that's us done. I'll drop him a line and get it confirmed. Over the weekend I hope to find the time to write up a summation of the whole thing and talk about what I learned about how the game works, what I did right and what I did wrong, that sort of thing. Mostly, I want to get it out the way because I want to install the last patch and try a couple of modded scenarios that fix the Super-E sub killers issue.

Egan · 05-10-12, 03:34 PM

And that's a wrap! As I was writing my last post the final turn from CCIP appeared in my in box. I won't bother posting anything about it - nothing happened of any interest for a start. But that's it all over. Thanks to every one who joined in over these last 6 (!) months, It was a lot of fun. Like I said, I'll get something written down over the next few days. I told George he could come into the AAR now. I'm looking forward to seeing how he viewed some things.

05-03-12, 11:49 AM	#346
Fincuan Admiral Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Suomi, sauna, puukko, perkele Posts: 2,346 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	Nah it's quality intelligence reports à la WITP:AE again USA hasn't probably even produced that many Lightnings by this stage.

05-03-12, 03:15 PM	#347
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	What surprised me was the proportion of support squads to combat squads that were disabled/damaged in the raid, Especially considering the only the named unit in the report was the 1st Australian who are a combat unit IIRC. Having said that, I have felt for some time that a large proportion of the Allied troops at Moresby were non-combat. If these reports are even a little bit accurate I guess it ties together. I don't mean accurate in terms of casualty numbers, of course, because that is impossible to gauge without better recon, but in the proportions damaged. I think.

05-05-12, 05:23 AM	#349
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	No, you're right of course. But it does correlate with what I already thought was likely. I wonder where his carriers are at? If they are down at Townsville I wonder if they would have enough time to pounce on the Yamato gang as they attempt to scarper.

05-05-12, 04:12 PM	#350
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	As this game winds to an end I've been looking at getting back into a proper Japan campaign. I have plenty of ideas for strategies I'd like to try (against the AI to start with) but the dreaded economy management just looks like an insurmountable barrier to me. This campaign has been an eye opener for me in terms of what the Japanese are capable of. The last six months of '42 and the first few of '43 are an interesting period to play as it is really the end of Japanese inpunity and the beginning of the US build up. In the course of a few months, as I've said before, I've marveled at the growth of George's forces; not necessarily in terms of boots in the mud, or even warships, but in the air. The relative paucity of the Japanese ship building is a force multiplier of sorts for the US as well. In my last full campaign as the Allies losing a few destroyers, cruisers or even carriers was not war ending proposition. For the Japanese it can be. I think, in order to remain competitive into '44 a Japanese player has to be pretty darn solid in the choices he makes in '42. I think anyone sticking to the historical script will only be bringing defeat onto himself. In a campaign where the Japanese player may only have automatic point victory to aim at in order to win, does throwing valuable resources into the Solomons and New Guinea constitute a sensible or even practical strategy? Is there any point in even taking Moresby? I'm coming to the conclusion that a Solomons campaign in the full game would only make sense if the end aim is to strangle US supply lines ahead of a full on invasion of Australia. And to do that, taking Noumea, Guadalcanal and Moresby will never really be enough because all you are doing is lengthening those convoy routes. What would you have to take, then? New Zealand? Samoa? Anywhere where netties can operate at distance I think. Create a potent aerial threat and force the Allied player into needing to patrol routes with carriers might be a viable tactic even though, eventually, he'll be using CVEs for convoy support. On the other side of Oz, i think one would have to take Perth in order to halt the transport of supplies from Capetown. And if the invasion of Australia is not your eventual goal, would all that material not be better off elsewhere? I think Rabaul has to be taken in any event, perhaps even Shortlands (and building the airbases on both to maximum) because they are a valid line of defence for Truk, and Netties can easily atrit shipping heading up the coast to the straights of thingumy..well, maybe not easily but it can be done. Just thinking out loud is all. Can you tell I've go nothing to do tonight?

05-06-12, 10:15 AM	#352
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	I don't mind the concept of Auto-vic, to be honest. It gives the Japanese player something tangible to work towards rather than just expanding until '43 and then consolidating until the Allied side whacks him into submission. But that's exactly the thing I was saying: A Japanese player needs to know from the outset exactly what he is going to do and must be able to stick to it whilst remaining flexible enough to deal with anything the Allies through at him. Although the Allies should have a solid plan to work against too, they have the flexibility to modify strategy on the fly and adapt to the tactical situation better than the Japanese can. I agree that all those far flung bases that give up a handful of points need to be ignored by the Japanese player unless they provide some form of security. even in an auto-vic game, the primary reason for taking real estate should always be what a certain base can provide to your strategy, not how many points it can provide. Luckily enough, those bases that are going to be your primary targets are going to be the ones most likely to provide the most points anyway. It's not a very elegant system, but i think the game would be worse off without it.

05-06-12, 10:40 AM	#353
Fincuan Admiral Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Suomi, sauna, puukko, perkele Posts: 2,346 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	For a pretty interesting Japanese strategy see the latest PzB vs. Andymac AAR at Matrixgames. Not only is PzB playing the Japanese side to what looks like a "running out the clock" victory, but he also thinks out aloud quite a lot. Good thoughts on strategy in general.

05-06-12, 11:07 AM	#354
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Another one which looks like it might be very interesting is PanzerJaeger Hortlund's new AAR against Canoerebel. He's basically trying to put into practice some of the things I've talked about in my last few posts. It looks like it's going to be a very interesting game.

05-06-12, 01:40 PM	#355
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	You know, I've got lots of things I should be getting on with; work, looking for a new job, doing some writing, setting up the blog I keep willing myself to start. I've a pile of tunes I need to get beat gridded before I use them in Traktor, I've got to get working on learning how to use Ableton properly. I've got a map for CMBN I've been trying to get finished for what feels like a year (actually, it is a year...) and I've got to make dinner. ...and yet, all I keep thinking about is moving virtual aircraft carriers around little blue hexes. Worse. Than. Crack. I'm hoping CCIP will get the last turn back to me sometime in the next few days so at least I can jot down some thoughts and conclusions on what I learned from the match. At least, I think it's the last turn. Given how often I screw up the dates it might only be the middle of October game-side and there's another three months to play.

05-06-12, 06:16 PM	#356
Falkirion Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Melbourne, AUS Posts: 1,043 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	I can understand taking Australia as an objective but wouldn't it be better swing down through Asia proper? Keep the Chinese bottled up, get Singapore/Indonesia, take Fremantle and then overland it to Darwin/East coast? That's one of Australia's flaws if you ask me, weve got a very undefendable north/west of the country. You can land forces anywhere along our northern/western reaches and we probably wont know about it until you're on top of Freo/Darwin.

05-10-12, 03:34 PM	#360
Egan Admiral Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	And that's a wrap! As I was writing my last post the final turn from CCIP appeared in my in box. I won't bother posting anything about it - nothing happened of any interest for a start. But that's it all over. Thanks to every one who joined in over these last 6 (!) months, It was a lot of fun. Like I said, I'll get something written down over the next few days. I told George he could come into the AAR now. I'm looking forward to seeing how he viewed some things.