The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Ill never understand why anyone is so precious about protecting the human rights of a person that (beyond all doubt) had/has no regard for the human rights of others.
Would they be equally upset if a robber got robbed?

Perhaps because we don't want to sink to the level of the criminal?

If we act no better than a criminal, we are no better than the criminal.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Perhaps because we don't want to sink to the level of the criminal?

If we act no better than a criminal, we are no better than the criminal.

Aye but as long as we remain stronger we can speak the only language they understand.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Perhaps because we don't want to sink to the level of the criminal?

If we act no better than a criminal, we are no better than the criminal.

if we are going to tow that line, then we may as well disband our military, since by that principle; killing a killer can never be justified - even in self defense, or in defense of someone else.

Context is everything. And what you say might make some sense if applied broadly or to say - capital punishment.
But lets just think about the equivalence in this case,
Denying a person re-entry to a nation, is comparable to them aiding or committing murder in the name of some ideology?
No, I don't see how that is stooping down to their level at all, Sorry.

There is idealistic and then there is realistic.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by JU_88

[...] Context is everything. And what you say might make some sense if applied broadly or to say - capital punishment.
But lets just think about the equivalence in this case,
Denying a person re-entry to a nation, is comparable to them aiding or committing murder in the name of some ideology? [...] There is idealistic and then there is realistic.

Some truth in there, but i am divided now. I was strictly against letting anyone in again including women or babies, though the remaining german number of IS fighters anyway is only around 30 by now (left over after the fights, was about 800 altogether). I would neither like to pay for their arrest, nor have them here at all. On the other hand those british girls were 15 or (younger?) when they left.. dumb no doubt but can they even be on trial as underage children? The babies cannot be held accountable, but taking them away from their mothers?

Trump demanded Germany to take back all its IS nationals threatening he would let them free otherwise, while at the same time stating the US would not take their US IS-fighters back.
But after all the Kurds have then stated that they would not let go anyone of their prisoners, demanding an international trial to be held in their country

[ikalugin]

Babies are innocent.


The mechanism I would go for is to recognise the adults as having ISIS citizenship if they fit certain criteria and then go through due process to remove their original citizenship if they have comited crimes.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Catfish

On the other hand those british girls were 15 or (younger?) when they left.. dumb no doubt but can they even be on trial as underage children? The babies cannot be held accountable, but taking them away from their mothers?

Begum for example is 19 now so if she's put to trial it'll be as an adult.
As for the babies, taking them away from mothers like Begum would be in the best interest for the baby, think about it what you've heard so far about her...she has no remorse, she justified the crimes commited by ISIL what you think she plans to fill that babies head with? I'd say it won't be a good word about our western civilization to which she already has turned her back to.

[Catfish]

^ of course the mother should show (some believable!) regret, i just thought about young dumb girls joining the IS at underage and then regretting it. Once there i guess there was no easy way out anymore.
But if she liked terror and a caliphate, terrorism and beheading of 'infidels'..

[Jimbuna]

It is being reported in some press that she may now be regretting not showing any remorse during the interviews.

Other sources feel she may have been coerced by those alongside her in the camp.

Further sources are saying she now regrets giving the interviews.

Take your pick on what you believe but the plain and simple bottom line for me is.....actions come with consequence3s and even at fifteen years of age I'm confident she knew that.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

[...] Take your pick on what you believe but the plain and simple bottom line for me is.....actions come with consequence3s and even at fifteen years of age I'm confident she knew that.

Yes, but here 15-year old are being denied the knowledge of what they are doing
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...postcount=6701


Ikalugin wrote:

Babies are innocent.
The mechanism I would go for is to recognise the adults as having ISIS citizenship if they fit certain criteria and then go through due process to remove their original citizenship if they have comited crimes.

This sounds good and well, so they get IS citizenship (ahem whatever this is), but what would you do with the babies. Considering one of the mothers has committed murder or terrorist acts by any jurisdiction?

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Catfish

This sounds good and well, so they get IS citizenship (ahem whatever this is), but what would you do with the babies. Considering one of the mothers has committed murder or terrorist acts by any jurisdiction?

Babies are innocent.



If those children are entitled to the original citizenship of their parents by law, then they should go through the same procedure. Ie if:
- they are entitled to other citizenship, for example that of ISIS.
- they are proven to have commited crimes that warrant removal of their parents' original citizenship with due process in the court of law.
Then they should get their citizenship removed.

If they didn't do anything wrong (babies tend to be unable to commit crimes) or there is strong evidence that they were coerced into commiting the crimes (for example a lot of Central Asian migrant workers to KSA get enslaved and sold to ISIS) then I do not see the basis for removing the citizenship claim they got from their parents.


As to the ISIS wives, I do not see the cause for removing their original citizenship unless they did something wrong (provided that dual citizenship is allowed). You cannot prosecute a person based on whom they married or what their nationality is or what their ancestors did. It is up to the state to prove their individual guilt, for example that they participated in torture or what not.

[Jimbuna]

I'm not aware of having made any reference to a baby but if I have then that would be an unintentional mistake of my own making.

Speaking as a UK citizen I am simply exercising my right to state my view and that view is that I do not want her here in the UK because it would be too costly to the public purse and the potential for making trouble/harm is imho too great a risk.

Nothing personal Kai but why doesn't your country do the decent thing and let her settle within your borders. Heaven only knows how many existing and potential terrorists have already been allowed in....surely one more won't make that much difference.

Having said that, I notice there isn't exactly a queue of any countries offering anything at all in the way of help to her.

Many on here should know me well enough by now. I call a spade a spade after weighing up the pros and cons and I'm of the firm belief she has, by her very own actions, made her bed and as such should lie in it.

[Catfish]

Where did i say i want them here, or in the UK?

I did not come up with those babies first, but neither did you as far as i remember.
I just ask what should happen to them - take them away from their mothers and raise them in an orphanage? Clearly you cannot accuse or convict babies for what their mothers did?

[Jimbuna]

Fair enough.

As for babies I would only suggest that the best outcomes for them are derived at, whatever that may be.

I certainly wouldn't want to see them abandoned in a war torn country.

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Where did i say i want them here, or in the UK?

I did not come up with those babies first, but neither did you as far as i remember.
I just ask what should happen to them - take them away from their mothers and raise them in an orphanage? Clearly you cannot accuse or convict babies for what their mothers did?

In these cases Babies should stay with the mother.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Doesn't this just send a message to the ordinary folks living where Daesh have influence, that only western lives matter?

lets be honest,
Western lives generally matter more to westerners, eastern lives generally matter more to easterners etc. People are marginally more concerned with what effects their region, or their group or their 'tribe'. This applies on what ever scale you like,
E.g you would care more about the misfortune of a family member than that of some random person in your town. and you would care more about a bad event in your town than one in the next town.
Does that make you seem prejudiced? probably, but so what? Everyone is the same on this.

I think they (those in the Daesh effected regions) more or less understand that perfectly well because, they are no different to us. I'm pretty sure the national news in Syria wont priorities stories about some serial rapist in Wales, or some civil unrest in Uganda. People there just wont care so much about what happens in geographically far away location they have no meaningful connection with.

its a natural human impulse.

Though i understand its a perceived as a abit of a sin within progressive circles (when it comes to nationality or race). but i honestly think that's partly just down to the gig of them wanting to appear more virtuous, empathetic and ANTI-racist than the average Joe.
On the flip side, its as unrealistic as - in the aftermath of a western terrorist attack - people demanding to see the same level of outrage from the Middle east, and of course you wont see it. It doesn't mean the majority don't condemn it, (hell they are victims of it more often than we are) it just means they don't care so much because it simply didn't happen in their neck of the woods.