GWX (Grey Wolves eXpansion Mod)

[melnibonian]

Welcome to SubSim Barbac

Enjoy your stay here and your GWX eXperience

[Barbac]

Originally Posted by melnibonian

Welcome to SubSim Barbac

Enjoy your stay here and your GWX eXperience

Thx dear melnibonian for your welcome !
So many interesting things to know, learn, share and enjoy as a Kaleunoob

Barbac

[onelifecrisis]

I'm playing:
GWX 2.0
GWX 2.0 Armed Trawler Patch
GWX - Enchanced Damage Effects
OLC GUI 1.2.1
OLC Night Sky Fix (GWX 2.0/16km Atmosphere)
SH3 Commander 2.7 (with updated GWX2 config files)
SH3 Weather 1.5

In the screenshot below, note the flag (Norway, unless I'm mistaken) and the date. Shouldn't this ship have it's lights on?

[Jimbuna]

Most of the neutrals are lit up but there are also versions in the roster that are unlit.
Don't want to make your decisions automatically do we

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Most of the neutrals are lit up but there are also versions in the roster that are unlit.
Don't want to make your decisions automatically do we

Ah! A bit of an uncertainty factor? Nice.

[Kilhmar]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I'm a member of the team your refering to and attaching such a blanket subjective label to

I did not refer to any team, the manual did, and I did not attach any lable. I simply quoted a part of your team's philosophy that I happen to agree with.

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Don't presume to think and speak on my behalf.

I don’t and I have never done so. If you think otherwise than please quote me doing so.

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

LOL! Didn't take long for your thinly veiled condescension to become overt.
Not only are your above comments irrelevant... but speculative.

You asked…

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Did you play stock SH3 for any length of time?

… and I answered. My reply was part tongue-in-cheek with smilies and everything. But if you want to talk about condescending behaviour look no further than you own post directed at me:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Additionally, what you fail to recognize…

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

…in light of game limitations that you have not accounted for.

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Still, individuals come to this particular thread with a sense of entitlement and a disrespectful attitude... to demand that we fix it for them or give them specific information on how to mod a given element when there is an entire forum here in which to deliberate such matters. Though we are often quite happy to assist players to fully enjoy their installation... it is not our responsibility to do so.

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Momentarily disregarding 'historical facts' and discounting as to whether or not one source or another should be deemed valid OR 'definitive' as you appear to present with your postings...

You presume to know what I do or do not recognize. I have never asked (or demanded as you say) that you or anyone else do anything to change your mod. Yet you accuse me of doing so. And you presume to speak on my behalf with regard to how I value source information.

And you say I am condescending.

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Be that as it may... no matter how much icing you slather on that cake... there's still needles in it... and we're not biting.

The needles are in your head, not my “cake”. I have been nothing but courteous and polite, careful not to bruise fragile egos, but despite your claims of “equally valid interpretation of available data resources” my interpretations supported by first-hand sources have been met by wall-of-text rebukes, excuses, accusations and demeaning comments.

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Contextualization and cherry-picking at its best. Nice try. Though, I think that when we place it in its natural surroundings... clarity and logic return.

From the currently available GWX Manual: (Top of page 86)

Yes, “realism” is truly in the mind of the beholder. A philosophy I wholeheartedly agree with. That something which was praise from me somehow is twisted into a slight shows just how fragile your egos are. In your defence it is not uncommon for developers and modders to be very protective of their work.

Now after this post your collective egos probably need stroking. Luckily there is no lack of fanbois to do that here.

Originally Posted by Erich Topp

"Because GWX team think so". I understand. "Holy cow" is untouchable. Got it.

Indeed.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Ah! A bit of an uncertainty factor? Nice.

Yep, theres plenty of that in store for the future

Just sailed out of Trondheim whilst testing 2.1 and got the shock of my life

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

I did not refer to any team, the manual did, and I did not attach any lable. I simply quoted a part of your team's philosophy that I happen to agree with.

I don’t and I have never done so. If you think otherwise than please quote me doing so.

You asked…

… and I answered. My reply was part tongue-in-cheek with smilies and everything. But if you want to talk about condescending behaviour look no further than you own post directed at me:

You presume to know what I do or do not recognize. I have never asked (or demanded as you say) that you or anyone else do anything to change your mod. Yet you accuse me of doing so. And you presume to speak on my behalf with regard to how I value source information.

And you say I am condescending.

The needles are in your head, not my “cake”. I have been nothing but courteous and polite, careful not to bruise fragile egos, but despite your claims of “equally valid interpretation of available data resources” my interpretations supported by first-hand sources have been met by wall-of-text rebukes, excuses, accusations and demeaning comments.

Yes, “realism” is truly in the mind of the beholder. A philosophy I wholeheartedly agree with. That something which was praise from me somehow is twisted into a slight shows just how fragile your egos are. In your defence it is not uncommon for developers and modders to be very protective of their work.

Now after this post your collective egos probably need stroking. Luckily there is no lack of fanbois to do that here.

Indeed.

Kilhmar

This thread is now deteriorating to a level that it was not intended to. In less than 20 posts you have managed to undermine the hard work and effort of a group of very talented people who have, in some cases given 2 1/2 years of much of their spare time to this community, in order that so many can enjoy what is IMHO one of the best submarine simulations yet released.

If that (as I suspect) was your intention, you have succeeded.

The obvious purpose of this thread was to give the community the opportunity to discuss the GWX mod and also act as a kind of platform to assist people with their technical queries.

I presume Neal and or a moderator or two are studying this thread.

I sincerely hope this thread is not locked because so many people view and as such get some form of enrichment from it.

You have been asked politely to start a thread of your own and desist from hijacking this one.

Give it a bit of thought.

If you wish to continue your discussion, why not consider using the PM function.

I read what you say about egos........but of course, egos can't be massaged in PM's can they.

If you would like to have a verbal conversation, come onto our TS server:

82.39.85.56:8767............the password is 'wolf' and I'm there right now.

None of jimbunas smilies I'm afraid.....just plain common adult good advice.

[Kilhmar]

Jimbuna, I entered this thread with no intentions other than thanking you people for your efforts and to seek help adjusting the anti-air aspect of my game, however it turned in to a purse fight pretty quick. The .50 cal discussion should have been taken elsewhere, but as it so often happens it wasn't. Attack my arguments if you must, but please refrain from these personal attacks. I have been careful (or thought I was) to sugarcoat everything that could possibly be construed as criticism because I have been forewarned about you people before coming to this forum ... but I had no idea!

If you people are willing to end this here and now, then I have no objections. There are no valid reasons to continue this or to close this thread. If I have offended you then I apologize, because that certainly was not my intention.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

Jimbuna, I entered this thread with no intentions other than thanking you people for your efforts and to seek help adjusting the anti-air aspect of my game, however it turned in to a purse fight pretty quick. The .50 cal discussion should have been taken elsewhere, but as it so often happens it wasn't. Attack my arguments if you must, but please refrain from these personal attacks. I have been careful (or thought I was) to sugarcoat everything that could possibly be construed as criticism because I have been forewarned about you people before coming to this forum ... but I had no idea!.

You were simply rebuffed, (very graciously at that) and you followed up with personal attacks.

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

If you people are willing to end this here and now, then I have no objections. There are no valid reasons to continue this or to close this thread. If I have offended you then I apologize, because that certainly was not my intention.

Several posts ago, you stated that you'd made your final post. We responded and were happy to leave it at that.

Apparently that wasn't truly your intention. Whether or not you agree with or concur with our methodology/logic/sources is irrelevant.

Just as you, or any other modder, we modify our work based on our interpretations of the facts as limited by the game engine.

You have now leveled personal attacks against myself, the team, and have attempted to discredit the work we've done. Asking us to drop the matter that you initiated certainly reveals your arrogance and sense of superiority. Furthermore, it implies that you have no respect whatsoever for the collective intelligence or approach to problem-solving that this team has.

Filibustering, long-winded posting, and efforts at coercion will change nothing. We owe you nothing. GWX is given to all who choose to use it, free of charge. No one puts a gun to your head and orders you to use it as a whole or in part.

Once again... I will reitterate the standpoint of the GWX development team for the sake of clarity.

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

I have accounted for the game limitations that I have encountered. However I have already made a number of successful tweaks to my game, and I plan to do some further testing. I will see if I can find time to make a JSGME mod out of it.

WONDERFUL!!!

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

And as for when I started playing SH3 … when you were browsing the PC game section and found SH3 I was racking up tonnage in the Atlantic.

LOL! Didn't take long for your thinly veiled condescension to become overt.
Not only are your above comments irrelevant... but speculative.

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

I pre-ordered the European version (with Star Force and everything, curse them!). I’ve been using GWX 1.0-1.3 since you guys released it and I’ve been very pleased with what you have done for the game. I’ve only just recently decided to join the SH3 community since I was quite involved in WWII air war communities....

Be that as it may... no matter how much icing you slather on that cake... there's still needles in it... and we're not biting.

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

“The GWX team believes “realism” is in the mind of the beholder.”
So true.

Contextualization and cherry-picking at its best. Nice try. Though, I think that when we place it in its natural surroundings... clarity and logic return.

From the currently available GWX Manual: (Top of page 86)

Originally Posted by Das Buch

The GWX team believes “realism” is in the mind of the beholder. There are very few (if any) people playing

Silent Hunter III, with or without modifications, that have personal experience in submarine warfare as it was practiced during World War II, let alone personal experience in a U-boat in combat. Realism is therefore whatever one can glean from interpreting other sources and representing them to the player within the limitations of the Silent Hunter III game engine. “Reality” for a U-boat commander meant they paid for their mistakes with their lives; not wishing to enforce this extreme sanction on the gaming community, we have tried to provide a game that is enjoyable to play while also being realistic enough to give a taste of the life of a U-boat commander.

Now to clear away any obfuscation resulting from baiting and trolling:

With regards to your complaints about machine guns versus U-boats:

Hull integrity loss to "smaller caliber weapons" is not unique to GWX. Infact GWX mitigates it rather well IMHO... without turning the U-boat into a "Tiger Tank."

SH3 does not distinguish between the pressure hull, and vital components mounted/stored/attached to points outside the pressure hull.

As a result, some hull integrity is lost in any attack that damages vulnerable components, like the deck guns, flak guns, periscopes, snorkel components, GHG or KDB hydrophone pickups, air intake trunking for the diesels, spare torpedoes, ballast tanks, fuel oil saddle tanks, the UZO/scope heads, etc. Therefore, there is no way to protect the hull integrity of the U-boat from machine gun fire without also making these historically vulnerable items immune as well.

It's the result of a hard-coded design decision, and we've chosen not to mess with it given that fixing the vulnerability issue that has existed since stock Silent Hunter III would cause new invulnerability issues.

These are our justifications for not fiddling with vulnerability to MG fire in GWX in part, and explains why we did not worry about how much armor is penetrated by 0.50-caliber MG fire at various ranges, distances, and impact angles.

A .50 caliber round does not need to fully penetrate the pressure hull or component thereof, to cause a loss of structural integrity, or other serious problems relating to the optimal functionality of a U-boat.

A U-boat's function is not to remain on the surface in an effort to duke it out with aircraft or any surface unit that may cause harm to said U-boat. Whether or not you feel that any given element as modded in GWX is "unrealistic" or not is in actuality irrelevant. Arguably, GWX functions to illicit an appropriate response in the player causing him/her to think more like an actual U-boat commander... "I may win any individual engagement... but aircraft are extremely dangerous and I must dive."

It is after all, a U-boat simulator... not a flight sim.

Aircraft gunnery as presented in GWX causes the desireable effect of suppressing flak crews, to assist aircraft as they run in to drop bombs, aerial DC's (which were largely non-functional in stock SH3), fire rockets, and/or 57mm cannon shells that serve to cause the "REAL" damage to your boat in GWX. Whatever 'hull integrity damage' you suffer from strafing is quite negligeable in the face of follow-on attacks by other ordnance.

In testing, the aircraft damage models were generally designed to withstand only 1.5 attack runs against a a player U-boat mounting only 2x Flakzwillings sitting in a flat sea (an UNUSUALLY stable firing platform/condition) ... with just a smidge of additional durability for multi-engined aircraft... and any additional armor plate they might have carried. (Which was comparatively minimal indeed given the need for reduced weight in favor of range endurance of patrol aircraft.) Aircraft usually DID survive an attack run in the face of AA fire... probably owing to the fact that the U-boat is not a very stable firing platform... at least in comparison to an aircraft.

Momentarily disregarding 'historical facts' and discounting as to whether or not one source or another should be deemed valid OR 'definitive' as you appear to present with your postings... a game does not/cannot work much at all like real life. If we were to fully take into account real life matters, we'd need mainframe computers to run the simulation... to include such things as mettalurgical reactions to temperature, corrosive effects of seawater, etc etc etc.

Personally, I see the U-boat damage model as being quite forgiving as it is in GWX.

Given the limitations of a game system, you will find it a necessity to make small compromises in light of farther reaching effects. It would appear that you are not aware that the smallest caliber weapon in SH3, and subsequently GWX, is the 20mm. It is this same 20mm that is used universally in SH3/GWX for everything that may employ a 20mm weapon.

Additionally, what you fail to recognize is a massive and complete revision of the air coverage in SH3/GWX (for the sake of historical accuracy) and the composition of air attacks against player U-boats. Did you play stock SH3 for any length of time? If you have, then you can recall attacks from 12 Wellingtons at a time... 6 Catalinas...etc etc. Air coverage/attack composition certainly plays into the same equation as weapon damage values and damage modelling.

I think the most important thing that one can attempt to achieve, is to cause an historical behavior and and attempt to reproduce historically plausible/logical survival probabilities, disregarding what settings (historically accurate or not) you need to adjust to obtain those end-effects. Generally speaking, the GWX development team and testing crew share this view.

Furthermore, the Silent Hunter devs (to their credit) left us an adjustable skeleton that modders can manipulate. As 'simulator players' can, and often do become their own worst enemies by 'rivet counting'... if you feel you can do better, by all means do so.

We often help other modders and/or non-modders reach their aims. Though quite often we do so in private these days... as that is our way following the cumulative fatigue of 2 1/2 years of 'debating' different aspects of 'realism' as we have modded/researched/implimented it in GWX.

(If you feel our sources aren't viable... read the bibliography section of the GWX manual.)

At one time or another, virtually every aspect of GWX has come under fire as being 'unrealistic' for 'this reason' or 'that reason.' Still, individuals come to this particular thread with a sense of entitlement and a disrespectful attitude... to demand that we fix it for them or give them specific information on how to mod a given element when there is an entire forum here in which to deliberate such matters. Though we are often quite happy to assist players to fully enjoy their installation... it is not our responsibility to do so. Neither is it unreasonable for us to first explain our methodology when it comes to why we did one thing or another. Often understanding a thing, is better than further file modifications that will likely generate undesireable side-effects in unexpected places elsewhere in the game.

We've given the best of ourselves in an effort to model the entire U-boat war... not just The Battle of the Atlantic. Without a doubt, each and every GWX user will find one element or another that they aren't happy with... reasonably or unreasonably. We've addressed each important aspect logically and have struck a balance with platform limitations that we must accept.

Before continuing onwards to discuss such matters as the manufacturing disparities of various ammunition, I invite you to start your own thread... and to discontinue hijacking this one.

You have stated your opinions and carried out your arguments... and we have modelled matters in-game to meet our equally valid interpretation of available data resources... in light of game limitations that you have not accounted for.

[Kilhmar]

Yes I see now that you really do live for these purse fights Kpt. Lehmann as I've recently been told. Your reputation precedes you I'm sorry to say.

I have said my piece and won't give you the pleasure of continuing this.

*Ende*

[donw]

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

*Ende*

I sure hope so!!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Kilhmar

Yes I see now that you really do live for these purse fights Kpt. Lehmann as I've recently been told. Your reputation precedes you I'm sorry to say.

I have said my piece and won't give you the pleasure of continuing this.

*Ende*

As much as you may like to personalize the last six pages of conversation to make it "all about Kpt. Lehmann"...

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

You have now leveled personal attacks against myself, the team, and have attempted to discredit the work we've done. Asking us to drop the matter that you initiated certainly reveals your arrogance and sense of superiority. Furthermore, it implies that you have no respect whatsoever for the collective intelligence or approach to problem-solving that this team has.

You have received logical responses inspite of all efforts by you to derail this thread. If you are unhappy with our responses, you do not have to respond to them.

Just leave it be and do your own thing.

[Jimbuna]

Righteo then......returning to normal transmission.


Coming to a monitor somewhere near you soon..............

[Dowly]

Bf "Spotted Dick" 109?