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01-27-08, 11:17 AM | #3061 |
Sea Lord
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Oh... I see the effect of heavy machine gun fire on U-Boat hulls is still be thrashed out... I don't get, why people think aircraft are unkillable... I'll post a screenshot from my log of the two aircraft I destroyed shortly no. Great trophies they are.
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01-27-08, 11:31 AM | #3062 |
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Does anyone here know how thick the gun shields of U-boat flak guns were? I know the army Flakpanzer versions had between 20 and 25 mm thick gun shields, but this sounds perhaps a bit excessive for a U-boat installation.
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Und Gott sprach als erster zu den Steinen:"Wollt ihr U-Boot Fahrer werden?" Und die Steine antworteten darauf:"Nein Herr, wir sind nicht hart genug!!" |
01-27-08, 11:52 AM | #3063 |
Sailor man
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Is anyone else having difficulties loading save games with GWX2? I'm down to resigning myself to never try loading save games as they virtually always crash at the "not so long ago" screen. Tell me I'm not the only one almost willing to roll back to GWX 1.03 because of this frustration.
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01-27-08, 11:54 AM | #3064 |
Sonar Guy
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Not had that trouble mate...
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01-27-08, 11:57 AM | #3065 |
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A cute anectodal:
"After a fruitless search pursuing two fading sonar contacts in the mid-South Atlantic narrows, Tripoli and her group returned to Recife on 11 September for provisioning and fuelling. Underway again two days later, TG 47.7 headed out to conduct another search—this time along the estimated track of two U-boats slated to rendezvous for refuelling. One of the target U-boats was U-1062, a "Milch Cow" bound from Penang, Malaya, with a cargo of valuable petroleum products for the German war effort. Ordered to fuel U-219, outward-bound for the Far East, U-1062 prepared to rendezvous with her smaller sister boat in the South Atlantic narrows—directly in the path of the Tripoli escort group. Passing to the westward of the Cape Verdes, TG 47.7 made rendezvous with the Mission Bay (CVE-59) escort group to conduct a joint hunter-killer operation against the two enemy boats. Round-the-clock searches by prowling, radar-equipped Avengers continued with unrelaxed vigilance until 40 minutes after sunset on 28 September, when a TBF piloted by Lt. William R. Gillespie, USNR, reported a definite contact with the surfaced U-219 only 11 miles from the enemy's estimated track. Gillespie went in to conduct a low-level rocket attack, but heavy flak slapped the intrepid airman's plane and crew into the sea. Another Avenger, drawn to the battle, braved the maelstrom of flak to conduct another rocket run and also dropped depth bombs, while a Wildcat strafed the twisting and turning U-boat which struggled desperately to dodge the harassing attacks by the American planes. Indeed, U-219 emerged from the fracas unscathed; but U-1062 did not enjoy similar good fortune. Fessenden (DE-242), one of Mission Bay's screen, homed in on sonobuoy indications on 30 September and killed the "Milch Cow" with a four-charge pattern. In the meantime, U-219 was not yet out of the proverbial woods— one of Tripoli's Avengers dropped depth bombs on the fleeing boat on 2 October. Keen-eared American sonar-men felt that they had definitely "killed" the submersible, but postwar accounting showed that U-219 had escaped to Batavia, Java."
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Und Gott sprach als erster zu den Steinen:"Wollt ihr U-Boot Fahrer werden?" Und die Steine antworteten darauf:"Nein Herr, wir sind nicht hart genug!!" |
01-27-08, 12:04 PM | #3066 | |
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Quote:
I really wish I still had copies or links to all the documentation I had bookmarked back when I played World War II Online. The effectiveness of aircraft guns vs. ground vehicles was always a huge topic of debate. Here are a couple of pages I managed to find on the WarBird's forums that list the armor penetration values of some of the common aircraft guns. http://img59.exs.cx/img59/919/ap19az.jpg http://img59.exs.cx/img59/9960/ap23wz.jpg Also, keep in mind that no matter what you see in movies regarding the cannons on aircraft, you're not always going to see big explosions or such. Cannons on aircraft usually had several different types of ammo. Some would fire HE (High Explosive) rounds, some fired AP (Armor Piercing) rounds, and some would fire a mixture of the two (3 AP rounds followed by 1 HE or something similiar to that). AP rounds hitting would show no explosion on impact, meanwhile HE rounds would. Really, in a U-boat, there's no reason outside of the training mission that you should be sitting on the surface exchanging blows with an aircraft. |
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01-27-08, 12:18 PM | #3067 | |
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Quote:
__________________
Und Gott sprach als erster zu den Steinen:"Wollt ihr U-Boot Fahrer werden?" Und die Steine antworteten darauf:"Nein Herr, wir sind nicht hart genug!!" |
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01-27-08, 12:23 PM | #3068 | ||
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Quote:
I'll give you a hint, someone listed the pressure hull thickness higher up, and it was less than 20mm. |
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01-27-08, 01:40 PM | #3069 |
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You might want take those documents with a grain of salt and read my post on modern armour piercing rounds. The IX had 22 mm thick pressure hull, and the VIIc/41 had 28-33 mm thick pressure hull.
I have some very detailed listings and after action reports on sinking of subs by US aircraft. None of the strafing attacks seriously damaged the U-boats, but sometimes cleared the deck allowing other aircraft to attack with bombs or rockets. Here are a few examples: U-966, 10 November 1943 (shared) Type: VIIC Laid Down: 1 May 1942, Blohm & Voss, Hamburg Commissioned: 4 March 1943, Oblt. Eckehard Wolf Commander: Oblt. Eckehard Wolf Career: Assigned: March 1943–July 1943, 5th Flotilla (Kiel) training; August 1943 – November 1943 9th Flotilla (Brest) Successes: None Fate: Sunk 10 November 1943 in the Bay Biscay near Cape Ortegal, Spain, by American and Czech aircraft bombs in one of the longest surface battles of aircraft against a U-boat in WWII. At 0800, a VB-105 PB4Y-1 Liberator piloted by Lieutenant L. E. Harmon was alerted by an RAF aircraft of a radar contact near the coast of Spain. Harmon located the surfaced U-boat and made two strafing attacks. Heavy AA fire damaged his aircraft and forced him to break off the attack. An RAF fighter then dove to attack the submarine. Harmon made a third strafing attack, but had to break off afterwards due to a fuel shortage. Lieutenant K. L. Wright of VB-103 located U-966 near Ferrol at 1040 and delivered a strafing and depth charge attack. Intense AA fire drove him off and he, too, had to depart the target for lack of fuel. Lieutenant W. W. Parish and crew then arrived on the scene. A depth charge attack was conducted in cooperation with a rocket-firing RAF Liberator at 1230. The submarine was abandoned by its crew after running aground at Oritiguiera, Spain. The German crewmen were quickly picked up by nearby Spanish fishing vessels and interned in Spain. Type: IXC Laid Down: 24 September 1940, Deutsche Werft, Hamburg Commissioned: 20 October 1941, Oblt. Georg Staats Commander: October 1941–November 1943, Kptlt. Georg Staats (Knights Cross) Career: Six Patrols; assigned: October 1941–June 1942, 4th Flotilla (Stettin); July 1942–November 1943 10th Flotilla (Lorient) Successes: 14 ships sunk for a total of 74,087 tons Fate: Sunk 12 November 1943, north of Cape Ortegal, Spain, in position 46°00'N, 07°30'W, by U.S. bombs (VB-103). 57 dead (entire crew lost). Lieutenant (jg) Brownell made a night attack on a submarine. His PB4Y-1 Liberator was apparently heavily damaged by the Uboat’s AA fire and crashed into the sea with no survivors. The next day, two oil slicks were spotted, about five miles apart. Postwar examination of German records indicates that he sank U-508. U-598, 23 July 1943 Type: VIIC Laid Down 11 January 1941, Blohm & Voss, Hamburg Commissioned: 27 November 1941, Oblt. Gottfried Holtorf Commander: November 1941–July 1943, Kptlt. Gottfried Holtorf Career: Assigned: November 1941–July 1942, 8th Flotilla (Danzig); July 1942–July 1943, 6th Flotilla (St. Nazaire) Successes: Two ships sunk for a total of 9,295 tons; one ship of 6,197 tons damaged Fate: Sunk 23 July 1943, in the South Atlantic near Natal, in position 04°05'S, 33°23'W, by U.S. bombs (VB-107). 44 dead, one survivor. Lieutenant (jg) Waugh, flying PB4Y-1 Liberator aircraft 107-B-6, attacked the surfaced U-boat in conjunction with a second squadron aircraft flown by Lieutenant William R. Ford, sinking the submarine. Waugh’s aircraft apparently sustained damage during the attack, plunging into the sea after his bombing pass with the loss of all hands. The submarine’s identity was confirmed by the sole survivor as U-598. U-174, 27 April 1943 Type: IXC Laid Down: 2 January 1941, AG Weser, Bremen Commissioned: 26 November 1941, Fregkpt. Ulrich Thilo Commander: November 1941–March 1943, Fregkpt. Ulrich Thilo; March 1943–April 1943, Oblt. Wolfgang Grandefeld Career: Assigned: November 1941–July 1942, 4th Flotilla (Stettin); July 1942–April 1943, 10th Flotilla (Lorient) Successes: Five ships sunk for a total of 30,813 tons Fate: Sunk 27 April 1943, south of Newfoundland, in position 43°35'N, 56°18'W, by U.S. bombs. 53 dead (entire crew lost). A VP-125 aircraft attacked U-174 on the surface near Cape Race. The U-boat heavily damaged the PV-1 Ventura with its 20-mm AA guns before sinking. U-604, 30 July 1943 Type: VIIC Laid Down: 27 February 1941, Blohm & Voss, Hamburg Commissioned: 8 January 1942, Kptlt. Horst Höltring Commander: January 1942–August 1943, Kptlt. Horst Höltring Career: Six patrols; assigned: January 1942–July 1942, 5th Flotilla (Kiel); August 1942–August 1943, 9th Flotilla (Brest) Successes: 6 ships sunk for a total of 39,891 tons Fate: Lieutenant Commander Thomas D. Davies and crew spotted a fully surfaced submarine during a coastal barrier sweep northeast of Bahia. The U-boat crew attempted to fight it out with 20-mm AA fire, but the bow guns of the Ventura quickly cleared the decks of the submarine, allowing Davies to make a perfect drop with four Mark 47 depth charges athwart the still surfaced U-boat. The submarine, U- 601, submerged after the attack then surfaced again at a 60-degree angle with the screws out of the water. The U-boat then submerged again. Later, German prisoners of war indicated that the damage to the U-boat was so severe that it had to be scuttled on 11 August 1943. The U-604 crew was taken aboard U- 185 and U-172 (during the sinking U-615, 7 August 1943 (shared with VB-130) Type: VIIC Laid Down: 20 May 1941, Blohm & Voss, Hamburg Commissioned: 26 March 1942, Oblt. Ralph Kapitzky Commander: March 1942–August 1943, Kptlt. Ralph Kapitzky Career: Assigned: March 1942–August 1942, 8th Flotilla (Danzig); September 1942–August 1943, 3rd Flotilla (La Pallice) Successes: Four ships sunk for a total of 27,231 tons Fate: Sunk 7 August 1943, in the Caribbean southeast of Curacao, in position 12°38'N, 64°15'W. Lieutenant (jg) John M. Erskine, pilot of a PBM-3S Mariner of VP-204, attacked the surfaced U-615 on 6 August, causing moderate damage. The squadron aircraft maintained contact with the submerged submarine and kept it down over night. On the morning of the 7th, Lieutenant Anthony R. Matuski spotted the U-boat when it surfaced and made an attack run. His aircraft was damaged by return fire and crashed with the loss of all hands. Lieutenant Lewis D. Crockett, flying a VP-204 Mariner, located the U-boat and conducted a bomb run that further damaged the vessel, but resulted in severe damage to his aircraft from AA fire. He remained on the scene until Lieutenant Holmes, pilot of a PV-1 Ventura of VB-130, arrived to assist him. The two aircraft conducted a coordinated bombing and strafing attack. Lieutenant (jg) John W. Dresbach, in a VP-204 Mariner, arrived and made a bombing and strafing attack on the Uboat. This attack resulted in mortal wounds to the pilot, Lieutenant Dresbach, and the final blow for the submarine. A U.S. Navy destroyer from Trinidad reached the area the next morning and rescued forty-five of the U-boat’s crew of 49. U-572, 3 August 1943 Type: VIIC Laid Down: 15 June 1940, Blohm & Voss, Hamburg Commissioned: 29 May 1941, Kptlt. Heinz Hirsacker Commander: May 1941–December 1942, Kptlt. Heinz Hirsacker; December 1942–August 1943, Oblt. Heinz Kummentat Career: Assigned: May 1941–August 1941, 3rd Flotilla (Kiel); August 1941–August 1943, 3rd Flotilla (La Pallice) Successes: Six ships sunk for a total of 19,323 tons, one ship of 6,207 tons damaged Fate: Sunk 3 August 1943, northeast of Trinidad, in position 11°35'N, 54°05'W, by bombs from a PBM-3S Mariner of VP-205. 47 dead (entire crew lost). Lieutenant (jg) C. C. Cox attacked U-572 on the surface and was shot down during the bomb run with the loss of all hands. I have never read or heard of a U-boat being sunk or seriously damaged by strafing alone. More documentation can be found at www.history.navy.mil Unfortunately the power of the .50 cal has been greatly exaggerated in popular media.
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Und Gott sprach als erster zu den Steinen:"Wollt ihr U-Boot Fahrer werden?" Und die Steine antworteten darauf:"Nein Herr, wir sind nicht hart genug!!" Last edited by Kilhmar; 01-27-08 at 01:52 PM. |
01-27-08, 04:55 PM | #3070 |
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What is up with the unkillable planes in... Never mind, this will actually be about something else if that is allowed in this thread
I have been waiting for the 23/29 flottilla to become available. Sure enough, in september 1941 it's there and I request transfer and it was approved. Strange thing is that when I click the map it says "base moved to brest" or something like that and I end up at 0 0 which is a bit south east of Freeport. I have GWX 2.0 with light harbour traffic and some other mods but they are graphical in nature. |
01-27-08, 09:36 PM | #3071 | ||
GWX Project Director
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The situation to which you refer is conclusive evidence that you have a file conflict. This occurs when the base coordinates in the Flotilla.cfg are different in comparison to the base coordinates in the LND file. The most likely causes are: a) Loading a save file from a previous version of GWX b) Failing to completely remove residual files from previous installations of SH3 c) Incompatible or incomplete mod installation (However inadvertant it may be.) Secondarily, given the above situation, you should also assume that other files in your installation are also suspect/corrupt/incorrect. As unfortunate and as aggravating as it may be, the only way to cure the situation is to reinstall SH3+GWX 2.0 from scratch after paying special attention to the removal process. First, completely uninstall SH3 USING THE GAME DISK... then visit your Program Files/Ubisoft/SilentHunterIII directory and delete all remaining GWX material. (There should be a fair bit of it as the GWX mod is over 1 gigabyte expanded.) Then REBOOT your system before initializing the installation process again. You must follow the directions in the "Getting Started" section of the GWX manual to the letter. I wish the answer was a more pleasant one for you, Storabrun. However a moment's pain now, will save you loads of frustration later. Quote:
Unfortunately, my advice to you is the same as to Storabrun. |
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01-27-08, 09:44 PM | #3072 |
Stowaway
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What Kpt. said above is probably 90% of most problems in all threads.
You MUST have a VIRGIN install!!! No roll backs, No "I uninstalled 1.03 but" No excuses!!! If she ain't pretty and proper? You got all kinds of VD problems! (Very Disappointing!) |
01-27-08, 09:48 PM | #3073 | |
Stowaway
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The problem is, as Kpt. Lehmann and the others have mentioned before, is that they're stuck both with the game engine (which is hardcoded) and that so many individual things are interconnected. Mess with one and that can have disturbing (and unrealistc) effects elsewhere. In a perfect world the .50 caliber would, at best, sweep your deck of personnel (ick!) and damage the light hull and prevent you from submerging. However, I don't think there is any way they can mod the damage effects to duplicate that without making some horrendous effects elsewhere. If you want to see just how devestating a .50 caliber aircraft attack can look like, watch this: I warn you now: it's really hideous. In a perfect world, yes, the .50 caliber most likely wouldn't do the internal damage that it does now. Unfortunately, the SHIII game engine and hard codes seem to be less than perfect. (By the way, excellent job of research there!) Last edited by Albrecht Von Hesse; 01-27-08 at 09:58 PM. |
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01-27-08, 10:02 PM | #3074 | |
Sailor man
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Thanks for the help. |
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01-27-08, 10:09 PM | #3075 |
Stowaway
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Right.
It is historically proven the .50 call would punture dive tanks and ballist tanks at the very lest. With out those being in near perfect working order? Your in a world of hurt. The game engine does not allow us to make a call as to if hull means dive tanks or ballist tanks. So we do the best we can within the limits we have to work with. If you can do better? Please do so and teach me!! I'd love that!! If you just want to complain? Push this button. |
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