GWX's "uber" AI demystified

[Warner Von Shultz]

Ok, it's late where I'm at; but let me take a stab at this and see what I can pull up. Sorry if this reply is mismanaged, I'm half asleep right now....




I think that when people play this simulation using the stock version of this game it affords you with the ability to do things and get habits in place that are not historically accurate to what a “real” U-Boat commander would do. For example I have seen many a video on youtube where a U-Boat slugs it out with a destroyer or two to show they can when a surface engagement. I have also seen in GWX mods of SH3 in video where people slug it out with escorts.


I have found with any simulation there are two ways to play them. First is the way of learning the way the AI plays and then take advantage of its weaknesses and exploit them to get high scores etc; but then there is the “realistic” way of playing the games thinking with the mindset of a real U-Boat commander with a real live crew. If you think that the AI in the GWX mod is too powerful, then you are probably making too many unrealistic risk that a commander might think twice before doing in real life. For example, if you are going to surface and slug it out with anyone in a gun dual you are probably stretching the limits of reality verses the real commanders of these boats during WWII. I sure the commanders and boats that survived the war were the ones that had captains that were well aware of what their boat could realistically do and not do and were aggressive to a fault when they knew they had the advantage; but were cautious enough to make the decision to dive to safety and away from danger if they saw that making an attack on X target would probably result in the the U-boats sinking. I don't know about many here; but when I see a target that has multiple strong escort destroyers and I am in less than 15 meters of water I think twice before I attack that ship because I know I am going to have one hell of a time trying to escape in shallow water. Yes I could simply risk the attack and if I die reload the gamesave; but when you do that what is the point of playing any game? It destroys the “realistic” point of the game when you do that.


I have found with this simulation that if you act like you truly only have one life in one career then the decisions you make will keep you alive for much longer. The AI in the GWX mod when playing realistically is strong, given the limitations of the game; but not so strong that escort seems to have Uber AI. I have found myself many of times thinking that I could evade an escort only to get major damage in GWX. And other times I have been surprised at how multiple escorts seem to just be content to let me slip away. There are many factors you cannot model in real life that would be impossible to do in this game. The ones the GWX had control over make me convinced they made AI changes that lead to more realistic game play. I'm sure that a convoy with many escorts was a tough nut to crack in real life, now – in the GWX mod – when you can crack that nut it all much more enjoyable as those beast sink below the waves by the fury of your eels.

[KeptinCranky]

....<reading wall of text above>... ........

speaking as someone who normally can't resist at leats looking for the gamey exploits, and having no qualms about using them when required, you are quite correct. playing as if you've everything to lose does make it far more realistic

only shame about it is that you'll probably never even see a Battleship, let alone sink it, but them's the breaks

[Warner Von Shultz]

only shame about it is that you'll probably never even see a Battleship, let alone sink it, but them's the breaks

I've ran across two Heavy Cruisers and managed to give on a really bad tummy ache once. But once he was hit has tentacles (escort) and the mob of gnats (aircraft) that followed me while I was shadowing, and a bad streak of weather, caused me to lose him.

But there's nothing quiet like the experience of any simulation as their is with a subsim. Not many other simulated war sims can you trail your enemy like a blood hound for days in real life waiting for your opportunity to attack.

Great thread. I don't want to break the integrety of the Thread's Topic so I'll end by saying. Great mod! Hard AI!

[Hitman]

I had some doubts about the GWX AI sensors in past version of the mod, but currently in the final 2.1 status I must say that it is fine-tuned to near perfection. Visual sensors in surface work as expected and I have yet to see a situation when I get detected and I was sure I wouldn't have been in real life.

Besides, OLC's environment makes the good even better, as it gives you dark nights but you catually can see enough to attack. A step further and I couldn't play anymore withoput it

[prince_vlad]

I read carefully your lecture about AI detecting "powers".Well...let me tell you something I learned so far noticing things when hunting a convoy...if you indulge me

The approach from behind the convoy won't work.Sooner or later they will come for you.If they are too many maybe you can bring down one destroyer if you are lucky and all you can get is losing time and torpedoes if you don't asses the situation correctly.But if only one ship or two are coming for you you could have one shot to bring them down , especially if they noticed you late and you had time to get out of their way.
The best way is to be in front of the convoy, to wait still and to position yourself in 90 degrees with their way.You can fire ,depends of the sub missiles ahead an backwards without them noticing you.But if you catch up with convoy from behind try to switch places and go right or left and set ypurself ahead the convoy.You just have to pay attention going behind the last destroyer in line and then lose the convoy for a while , meanwhile checking position to it from 10 to 10 minutes.That's my methods and they work 99%.

[Leandros]

Originally Posted by Warner Von Shultz

OkI have found with this simulation that if you act like you truly only have one life in one career then the decisions you make will keep you alive for much longer. The AI in the GWX mod when playing realistically is strong, given the limitations of the game; but not so strong that escort seems to have Uber AI. I have found myself many of times thinking that I could evade an escort only to get major damage in GWX. And other times I have been surprised at how multiple escorts seem to just be content to let me slip away. There are many factors you cannot model in real life that would be impossible to do in this game. The ones the GWX had control over make me convinced they made AI changes that lead to more realistic game play. I'm sure that a convoy with many escorts was a tough nut to crack in real life, now – in the GWX mod – when you can crack that nut it all much more enjoyable as those beast sink below the waves by the fury of your eels.

Relatively early in the war (late Fall '39, I believe) Dönitz issued instructions not to use deck guns - not even against merchants. Also to avoid contact with enemy naval vessels at all if not for self-defense. I suppose this was based on hard-earned experience but also the fact that PRI 1 was destruction of enemy commerce. Same went for the Luftwaffe on anti-ship missions.

One thing I did not see mentioned in the initial posting is that asdic, according to real sources I have seen, was less effective when the sub was at periscope depth. WoV, at a certain distance, you should not be liable to discovery even when right in front of the vessel using the asdic. How is this for SHIII? It needs to be said that I only have the GWX 2.0.

If I have any complaints it would be that destroyer lookouts are very efective as compared with those on the small-silhoutted U-boote and that the RN artillery is a little too well trained and effective (before radar period)....:hmm:

I enjoy the game immensely, to the extent that i am now trying to adapt it for simulations on Unternehmen Seelöwe (you know, the invasion that never was). Gettysburg has been shelved for a long time now.

Finally, I would like to offer a "solution" on attacking destroyers. The use of the rear tube(s) against destroyers which have just ran you over and making a turn afterwards seems to be well known. The best results with this is if you are heading towards the destroyer when he is making the attack run. Problem is, you quickly run out of rear torpedoes. A variant: You are in a tight turn when the attacker is passing close behind you - after that he usually starts a turn to come back. Instead of you continuing your turn - right away turn the other way (periscope up), at the same time cutting speed to get him outside torpedo arming distance. As he is offering his broadside to you give him a T1, always on highest speed. In non-dud mode magnetic always works, otherwise use impact on shallow setting. Doesn't matter if he sees the wake at this close distance and max. torpedo speed. Just give them a thrill.......... works less well against slower vessels as you do not get them outside the proper distance.

Keep ut the good work!


Edited!!!!!!

It seems I have to reconsider my above posting on tactics. Just this afternoon I experienced a reversal when a V&W outsmarted me. WoW, it is not that foolproof. The bastard counter-turned right away as my fish was in the water, straight for his broadside, avoiding it with a good margin. Happened on two occasions right after ea. other, one from the rear and one from the bow tube. And in a scenario I had set up by myself!!!

[KeptinCranky]

Evasion at periscope depth or slightly deeper, say 17 meters seems to work fairly well in rough weather where surface interference messes with the asdic and hydrophones on the escorts.

It isn't foolproof (hardly anything is, except going to 300 meters or slightly below and staying there until they give up)
but it works often enough to be worth a try in a tough spot

[Warner Von Shultz]

Using the rear torpedo tube tactic I would guess would be a little more difficult in real life without a PC to be able to check off "Weapon Assistance" . I would guess any captain able to do such calculations in the first place would venture to torpedo the ship before he got close enough to hit you in the first place. lol

Good tactic for SH3 though.

Laters

[Admiral_Stealth]

You are right. To survive 1943 to 1945 is a vast challenge. For what its worth I did and this is how. Dont please reduce the GWX2 challenge.

I always avoided as much as possible the areas of the map with air cover.
I kept my sub up to date with all technology, especially radar, torps and sound detection.
I never used pinging, just got to recognise the sounds.
My finger was always poised over the c button when travelling on surface in deep water only.
Whenever on the edges of aircovered water, and the radar detector indicated a beam I crash dived and moved at 2knts for at least an hour, to give air cover time to continue.
I attacked convoys only from diagonal front, with convoy torpedoes at 2,5km to 4k range. OFTEN THE CONVOY ESCAPED due to a change of direction or an escort being unexpectedly close.
I sparingly used a sound homing torpedo if necessary on the nearest destroyer if I judged he became a threat, ie was closing to within 2,5km thereby hoping the destroyers` source of my direction and location was lost. If I had a choice I took the destroyer equipped with hedgehogs. They were generally the best.
Oh yes always use silent running and stay deep, but my nerves couldnt take more than 140mtres as the boat was only just able to recover.
All the rest was said, be proactive at escaping, dont wait till detected, and keep your profile slim.
I use a 1941 1Xc which give me the exra number of torps.
Train your crew to give maximum speed of recovery for all requirements, including especially the officers.
Distribute the medals to those who serve you best.
Finally if your nerves cant take it any more, apply for a transfer to the far east where its easier to survive!

[Admiral_Stealth]

You are right. To survive 1943 to 1945 is a vast challenge. For what its worth I did and this is how. Dont please reduce the GWX2 challenge.

I always avoided as much as possible the areas of the map with air cover.
I kept my sub up to date with all technology, especially radar, torps and sound detection.
I never used pinging, just got to recognise the sounds.
My finger was always poised over the c button when travelling on surface in deep water only.
Whenever on the edges of aircovered water, and the radar detector indicated a beam I crash dived and moved at 2knts for at least an hour, to give air cover time to continue.
I attacked convoys only from diagonal front, with convoy torpedoes at 2,5km to 4k range. OFTEN THE CONVOY ESCAPED due to a change of direction or an escort being unexpectedly close.
I sparingly used a sound homing torpedo if necessary on the nearest destroyer if I judged he became a threat, ie was closing to within 2,5km thereby hoping the destroyers` source of my direction and location was lost. If I had a choice I took the destroyer equipped with hedgehogs. They were generally the best.
Oh yes always use silent running and stay deep, but my nerves couldnt take more than 140mtres as the boat was only just able to recover.
All the rest was said, be proactive at escaping, dont wait till detected, and keep your profile slim.
I use a 1941 1Xc which give me the exra number of torps.
Train your crew to give maximum speed of recovery for all requirements, including especially the officers.
Distribute the medals to those who serve you best.
Finally if your nerves cant take it any more, apply for a transfer to the far east where its easier to survive!

[Admiral_Stealth]

You guys have achieved a brilliant masterpiece by developing this simulation. I know how very difficult it is to carry out projects well, you guys are incredible.
I am sure the whole WW2 community are in agreement. Its the one and only, and its a fascinating and very enjoyable addictive challenge.

THANK YOU

S!

[Admiral_Stealth]

It was a 1942 1Xc not a 1941...sorry......from 2nd Flotilla out of Lorient.

[She-Wolf]

just want to add my thanks for this really useful post - really helpful and informative

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Admiral_Stealth

[gigel_escu]

I played the stock SH3 until late 1944, two times, for reasons who not depends from myself I cann't continue until the end of the war. Recentelly I play GWX and is very interesting, graphical I said. I am in April 1940 and I evade from escorts very easy. I want to see how I can manage with the situation on late 42 and later on, I think I don't meet the full power of AI units.

I don't think the AI is very strong, I speak at 1940 level, I can sunk a frigate with my deckgun from 2500-3000 meters, but that is very strange I cann't sunk an Elco Torpedo boat, I hited 4 times with my 88 mm cannon, from the first hit she burned out but not sinking, the machine gun from the bord damage my u-boat. Generally speaking I tried to sink patrol vessels with my deckgun. It is possible but depends the type of vessels and luck. But the U-boat is not an artillery boat, from 1941 anward the merchant vessels are armed with guns and they are very hard to sink too. An U-boat commander don't wave his hand at 3 destroyer, like me:p , and in hard circustances like weather, mechanical failure or warship sound in sonar, they retreat or dive imediatly. Don't try to engage enemy units if you are low on battery, don't expose your boat at damage. Repeat damaging make your subs depth limit to reduce and if you are damage and take a depth charge very close, the flooding can be fatal.