U.S.N buys Ruskie sub

[fredbass]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

The U.S navy claims that the submarine will not be used in front line service but will become a platform for high speed research and later a special target practice submarine, the U.S navy also released the submarines new name “U.S.S Discovery SSRN 2.”

Makes sense to me. We needed something to play around with that would test some of our own subs and ships capabilites and limitations. And I guess a fast 4 million dollar subject seemed like a pretty good deal.

[JSLTIGER]

It had to have been a joke. The titanium in K-123's hull must be worth more than $4 million...remember folks, the Alfa subs used to be referred to as "The Goldfish."

However, if it hadn't been a joke, it's notable to point out that K-123 would provide valuable insight to the US Navy as to hydrodynamic hull and propeller shapes, as well as valuable knowledge regarding system automation.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Yesterday afternoon the U.S navy announced its intentions to buy and restore a Russian Nuclear submarine.

The submarine in question is known as K123 and currently holds the record for the fastest submarine in the world.

The K123 was built in the 1970’s and is one of seven made, the U.S navy claims this submarine is to be bought at the cost of $4 million U.S Dollars.

The plan is to load the submarine onto a transport ship and then take it back to Norfolk harbour Virginia where specialist personnel can inspect and repair the submarine.

The submarine was removed from Russia’s active duty list permanently in 1995 and has sat waiting for disposal on the Kola Peninsular.

The submarine is to arrive at Norfolk some time next march, it will be the very first time America has stated her intentions to Russia.

Admiral Degalo told interfax “it is a great moment for this submarine, these submarines represented the skill of Russian engineers at the height of the cold war”

The U.S navy claims that the submarine will not be used in front line service but will become a platform for high speed research and later a special target practice submarine, the U.S navy also released the submarines new name “U.S.S Discovery SSRN 2.”

It’s believed that the U.S navy will adapt and modify the submarine for their own use, but the real question is will the submarine be seaworthy when she arrives?

What the hell would the US Navy want with a 40 year old tin can? I don't believe it.

And a 40 year old tin can that wasn't even equal to US Navy technology at the time it was produced to boot!

-S

[Kapitan]

Well for a starters the USN has been itching to get its hands on an al'fa from day one, simply because the submarine is still the fastest submarine in the world and the americans dont seem to be able to grasp how to do it.

Another thing is the blended sail if you lok the sail is blended in nicely to the hull giving less drag effect, again this is where the americans are stumped.

Russia is still today the only country on earth that has made an entire submarine from titanium, and to get hold of even this 40 year old lump of metal would be a gold mine even if we see it as nothing but a pile of junk.

If you notice all the submarines that are up for scrap are made of steel why do you think russia has not released the al'fa and papa class for scrapping yet? because when they do you can rest assured the royal navy and the U.S navy will be climbing over them and inspecting them with a tooth pick!

It maybe 40 years old it may be rotten to you it may not be at the level you expect in the USN but at the time it was made nothing on gods earth could touch the submarine and that counts more than anything so effectivly it was totaly invincible, now do you see why the americans went ahead and desigend the MK48 ADCAP? because if it wasnt for the al'fa then the ADCAPS would probably not exist.

So how did the russians counter the ADCAPS? simple they built a submarine that could go even deeper.

Enter Project 685 Plavnik or mike class with a crush depth of 1,100 meters the mighty ADCAP couldnt get this submarine its just a shame that it sank

[Kapitan]

And another thing the Al'fa class alone in scrap value is worth a good $50 million and i have seen an al'fa in real life sadly it was completely gutted just a hollow shell but they are quite small for a russian submarine!

[August]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

A rusty bucket from the 70's is a strategic asset 30 years later?

Possibly, B-52s for example are that old and older.

[Captain Nemo]

The only downside to the Alfa was that it was very noisy, but I suppose with a top speed of around 45+ knots and max depth of around 3,000+ feet it didn't really matter. I remember reading a book which had an account from a Russian captain of an Alfa class sub and he said that he was being tailed by an LA class boat. To evade he took his Alfa down to a 1,000 metres and the LA just couldn't follow him.

Nemo

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Well for a starters the USN has been itching to get its hands on an al'fa from day one, simply because the submarine is still the fastest submarine in the world and the americans dont seem to be able to grasp how to do it.

Another thing is the blended sail if you lok the sail is blended in nicely to the hull giving less drag effect, again this is where the americans are stumped.

Russia is still today the only country on earth that has made an entire submarine from titanium, and to get hold of even this 40 year old lump of metal would be a gold mine even if we see it as nothing but a pile of junk.

If you notice all the submarines that are up for scrap are made of steel why do you think russia has not released the al'fa and papa class for scrapping yet? because when they do you can rest assured the royal navy and the U.S navy will be climbing over them and inspecting them with a tooth pick!

It maybe 40 years old it may be rotten to you it may not be at the level you expect in the USN but at the time it was made nothing on gods earth could touch the submarine and that counts more than anything so effectivly it was totaly invincible, now do you see why the americans went ahead and desigend the MK48 ADCAP? because if it wasnt for the al'fa then the ADCAPS would probably not exist.

So how did the russians counter the ADCAPS? simple they built a submarine that could go even deeper.

Enter Project 685 Plavnik or mike class with a crush depth of 1,100 meters the mighty ADCAP couldnt get this submarine its just a shame that it sank

I disagree with you on several points - The only reason this sub is fast is simply because it is small and packs 42000-43000 shp. Its a brute force method that gave this sub a chance in a world where stealth is paramount and the Russians had no idea how to build a stealthy sub at the time. The sail, though nice, is designed for speed since littoral missions were impossible for Russian subs. US subs were designed for many mission types making the sail as found on US subs an asset, as well as for under ice operations. Its no big deal to streamline a sail (US designers could do it any time they want), but if that makes you more detectable in a shallow environment, its actually a hinderance.

The titanium is nice, but pointlessly expensive. The ADCAP is nice and would have come about eventually too through constant modifications anyway - just like its new mod is about to come out (And there was no Alfa around to spur its redesign this time!). Get the point? Outside of the metal value on this thing, I don't think the US would even want it other than to use as a enemy signature in a wargames scenario.

-S

[Dogsbd]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

the submarine is still the fastest submarine in the world and the americans dont seem to be able to grasp how to do it.

Sure we know how to make a faster sub if that was so important, but speed isn't as important as quiteness. I bet the Russians would do just about anything to be able to build a boat as quite as the latest US boats.

[Kapitan]

The american subs that have thier dive planes on the sail find it alot harder to surface through thick ice than the russians the knife like sail of the akula makes it perfect to slice open ice and surface.

The al'fa is yes now way obsolete, however in 1969 the americans lost thier undersea advantage untill whitey mack came along as the russians launched the yankee class.

Today submarines like the kilo and akula class are far quieter than the main line attack submarines the USN has (688 / 688i) the seawolf is of good design and quality something the soviets didnt have till alot later on.

And the alfa incident was off the coast of iceland back in the 1980's The alfa out dived and out ran its persueing submarine.

The alfa's role was not littoral or under ice but it was mainly an intercept submarine carried torpedos only to defend itslef the idea was it could speed ahead to meet the enamy battle group report back then run back before the USN could do squat about it.

The last alfa was used in 1995 as a trials boat then was re laid up again and so far it has just sat there.

The alfa was designed for speed and speed only, the soviets knew that they couldnt get the americans with silencing so they had the other alternative which was to make masses amounts of submarines (over 500) as they knew come war time they were bound to loose alot.

Now take the al'fas sucsessor there isnt one the role the alfa played is now built into the sierra III and to a point the Akula.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

The american subs that have thier dive planes on the sail find it alot harder to surface through thick ice than the russians the knife like sail of the akula makes it perfect to slice open ice and surface.

The al'fa is yes now way obsolete, however in 1969 the americans lost thier undersea advantage untill whitey mack came along as the russians launched the yankee class.

Today submarines like the kilo and akula class are far quieter than the main line attack submarines the USN has (688 / 688i) the seawolf is of good design and quality something the soviets didnt have till alot later on.

And the alfa incident was off the coast of iceland back in the 1980's The alfa out dived and out ran its persueing submarine.

The alfa's role was not littoral or under ice but it was mainly an intercept submarine carried torpedos only to defend itslef the idea was it could speed ahead to meet the enamy battle group report back then run back before the USN could do squat about it.

The last alfa was used in 1995 as a trials boat then was re laid up again and so far it has just sat there.

The alfa was designed for speed and speed only, the soviets knew that they couldnt get the americans with silencing so they had the other alternative which was to make masses amounts of submarines (over 500) as they knew come war time they were bound to loose alot.

Now take the al'fas sucsessor there isnt one the role the alfa played is now built into the sierra III and to a point the Akula.

Last time I checked, some of this is incorrect to. Dive planes haven't been on the sails in 20 to 30 years! ANd even when they were, they turned up 90 degrees to punch through the ice.

Also, the Akula is about as quiet as a 688 or maybe barely more, but the 688i is about the same or slightly less. And, no matter how you spin it, US subs don't need to catch the Alfa. They just need to keep them away. To play catch, that is what P-3's and Helo's are for and no Alfa is going to get away from those. Its noisey, and it can only go 45 knots. It can't hide. This is why it is sitting in the scrap yard.

-S

[Kapitan]

When the last alfa came out of service it was a good 35 years old these boats have only been sent to the scrap heap due to thier age.

Also i have read some where that the 688 diving planes do not go full 90 degrees making under ice ops harder.

Bear in mind all bar the delta class are designed specificaly for under ice operations from day one.

No sub can out run a helo or P3 but we can hide in places such as the artic ocean and so the P3 and helo are totaly useless.

[Kapitan]

I think we need erm more detail on that.

I have studied russian submarines for the last 8 to 10 years and have been on a fair few of them, and yes i can pick faults problems and what not with them but i do find i am bias alot to the russian side.

However sometimes the russians do have a clear cut advantage and sometimes so the americans do also it makes it fairish.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

When the last alfa came out of service it was a good 35 years old these boats have only been sent to the scrap heap due to thier age.

Also i have read some where that the 688 diving planes do not go full 90 degrees making under ice ops harder.

Bear in mind all bar the delta class are designed specificaly for under ice operations from day one.

No sub can out run a helo or P3 but we can hide in places such as the artic ocean and so the P3 and helo are totaly useless.

the 688 goes to a full 90 degrees - I have pics of it somewhere, so your source is incorrect. Still, 90 degree sometimes incurs damage, so the 688i with the dive planes moved to the hull was created to better deal with punching through.

Why would a carrier battlegroup need protection in the middle of ice? This is why I don't get that comment about hiding under ice and the P-3 / Helo. The 688i would be hunting the Delta in the past under ice however, which is what I don't get - why would an Alfa be used to protect it? The Alfa would give its position away due to the noise it generated. Alfa's were one of the noisest subs ever made.

THe Alfa's strategic value is minimal as compared to the AKula (Or the better Sierra that only 1 was made as far as I know) to the old Soviet Union. There is no need to produce more expensive (Their cost was prohibitive - which is what makes me question their logic of why they were produced - but the old Soviets were big on intimidation, so maybe that is the answer? They destroyed the Russian nylon industry making the Tsar bomb simply for intimidation, so that is probably the answer) subs with little or no stratigic value - that is why you do not have any more Alfa's running around. Just my 2 cents.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

So you can tell your source they are incorrect: