NYGM 2.2 Escort Logic Question - Page 2

Steeltrap · 10-17-06, 12:03 AM

Few comments:

1. Unbelievable that being on the bottom has no effect on your ability to be detected. While it certainly didn't (hence shouldn't) grant immunity to detection, lying on the bottom DID have an effect on how easy a U-boat was to detect based on...
- depth
- 'type' of bottom (rocky, sandy, cluttered - weeds, debris etc.)
- local conditions (current, presence of water-borne particulate matter)
Being near river estuaries, for example, would play merry hell with ASDIC due to different temperatures, salinity and debris in water.

2. The mod is a clever addition and DOES add uncertainty. I've run across (or they ran across me?) 2-3 DDs patrolling, slipped by them, then had them contact me again some hours later as they - presumably - head off on another leg of their search pattern. No more "right, got past them, end of problem!".

3. Stupid that AI doesn't use active regularly, as common doctrine was to run it always AFAIK. Sure, the escort will be detected, but then a U-boat will always hear an escort before the latter hears it, and the active means there is a real danger area around an escort, addin to its deterrance value.

4. Very interesting to hear about how the AI works with detection etc, and the pic from Ducimus is a beauty.

Having great fun with NYGM 2.2!

Der Teddy Bar · 10-17-06, 03:40 PM

Though it does not show it in the pictures above, the number and areas that the escorts cover ramps up over the years.

For example Scapa Flow will not be a walk in the park but is achievable until the date of the original attack when the escorts are ramped up.

The same goes for various other coastal regions.

NYGM will be doing the BIE Mod for other regions such as Gibraltar, of course it would then be the GE Mod

The BIE Mod will be re-evaluated after more feedback from the WaW patrols and various forums.

It is great to hear the enjoyment that you are all getting out of the NYGM TW 2.2 Mod

SubConscious · 10-19-06, 02:42 PM

I had an interesting experience last night related to this thread, so I thought I'd resurrect it.

First, I should probably admit that I'm not using manual targeting yet.

Ok, so I received a wireless that a large convoy had been spotted heading east, just north of my position. On my way to intercept, I encountered a large merchant heading west. If you’ve ever tried to sink an 8000GRT outbound merchant with a deck gun, my advice is to not attempt it. It took forever to sink, but that’s another story.

I finally get into position ahead of the convoy and start assessing the situation. The conditions are just about perfect: November 1939, Winds 7 knots, light fog, about 1am. There is a Flower Corvette ahead of the convoy and a large Auxiliary warship in the center row of the convoy, bringing up the rear. I can’t see any other warships, so I take a quick dive to determine if my Sonarman can pick up anything. No other escorts were detected.

I then move to get ahead of the convoy, positioning myself so I can take out the medium tanker and large cargo ships at the center. The boat is running at 7 Knots, 1 Knot faster than the convoy, and with decks awash at 7 meters depth.

Wouldn’t you know it: The Flower Corvette spots me. It doesn’t light up its search lights yet, but it starts steaming right for me at 16 knots. It’s decision time, but I’m tired, as it’s 1am in real time as well. Rather than just exit the game and save the battle for tomorrow, I decide to try to take out the Flower Corvette in a running gun battle.

Yeah, I was pretty tired.

As I’m not using manual targeting, I was able to look thorough my periscope and determine the enemy was about 4000 meters away and closing fast. I respond by turning to face the enemy while ordering emergency reverse. My logic here is to minimize my profile to the enemy while maximizing the time I’ll have to fire.

The deck gun crew gets set up for a 3500 meter shot, but the boat is pitching wildly in the 7 Knot seas. I have found firing directly over the bow to be the most difficult for this reason. Still, I’m considering this the lesser of two evils (the other being presenting a juicy broadside to the Corvette’s cannons), so I try to time the shot so the barrel of the 88mm is just right and with the Corvette’s shells screaming overhead, I fired…

…and I hit him. Not just once, I nailed him 3-4 times in short succession (missing about 30% of the time).

This is the interesting point, and the reason for this post: The Flower Corvette, now at 2500 meters and closing fast, decides to turn away. No kidding – the escort turned completely around and started steaming directly away from me. Now wide awake, I order flank speed ahead to try to catch her. I’m still firing the 88mm deck gun like a madman and I can see that I’m scoring hits, as the Corvette is now burning both fore and aft. She makes a hard turn to port to bring her guns back into play when a final 88mm shell slams into her…

…and I receive the notice from my watch officer that “She’s going down!”

I couldn’t believe it. I had to pause to read the line several times just to make certain it wasn’t my imagination. My boat didn’t take any hits during the engagement, though there were a few near misses. Very, very lucky…

The really cool part of this encounter was when the Corvette turned away. I’m assuming that there was something added to the code to make them attempt to escape from a losing battle, though I suppose it could have been a fluke. Still, it was a LOT of fun, regardless of how silly the act was.

Oh, and by the way, with that Flower Corvette out of the way, my VIIB was like a fox in the henhouse. I ended up sinking that auxiliary warship, the medium tanker and two large cargos. Having run out of eels, I surfaced and spent my remaining 21 deck gun rounds on a medium cargo ship, which gave up the ghost after the final round found home. I guess it’s time to move to manual targeting, but I’m having a blast.

SubConscious · 10-27-06, 09:04 AM

I have been playing around a bit with Flower Corvettes and I think they need some help. It's actually very easy to sink them if you surface behind them and pound away with the deck gun. It's easy because they don't bother to try to turn to bring their forward deck gun into play - they continue on their current course. It's easy to take out the rear gunner, as the poor fellow is virtually unprotected. The forward gunners then just shoot into the water to either side, as if they're trying to engage the enemy, but the ship can't maneuver. I've tried this in four tests and the result was the same.

I find this interesting in that if a Flower Corvette spots me on the surface, it comes right in for the kill. Similarly, if I surface in front of the ship, it blasts away (albeit rather inaccurately). Surfacing behind them appears to really throw the escort logic for a loop.

I suppose there is some possibility that my first round takes out steerage, as I first try to take out that rear machine gunner and searchlight, but I think this is unlikely.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is it just a fluke?

Der Teddy Bar · 10-27-06, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubConscious

I have been playing around a bit with Flower Corvettes and I think they need some help. It's actually very easy to sink them if you surface behind them and pound away with the deck gun. It's easy because they don't bother to try to turn to bring their forward deck gun into play - they continue on their current course. It's easy to take out the rear gunner, as the poor fellow is virtually unprotected. The forward gunners then just shoot into the water to either side, as if they're trying to engage the enemy, but the ship can't maneuver. I've tried this in four tests and the result was the same.

I find this interesting in that if a Flower Corvette spots me on the surface, it comes right in for the kill. Similarly, if I surface in front of the ship, it blasts away (albeit rather inaccurately). Surfacing behind them appears to really throw the escort logic for a loop.

I suppose there is some possibility that my first round takes out steerage, as I first try to take out that rear machine gunner and searchlight, but I think this is unlikely.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is it just a fluke?

Thanks for the feedback. We will look into this and see what we can do.

SubConscious · 10-27-06, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Thanks for the feedback. We will look into this and see what we can do.

I'll try it again later tonight (after the munchkin goes to bed) and see if I get the same results. Four incidents aren't a very good sample to work with. It could just be the luck of the draw.

Thanks for your responsiveness and willingness to explore this issue.

SubConscious · 10-27-06, 11:20 PM

Addendum: I tried this again tonight against two separate Flower Corvettes and had the same results. In each case I surfaced aft of the corvette and opened fire with my deck gun. The corvettes made no attempt to maneuver, though they did engage me with their stern weapons (while they lasted). One of the corvettes had started to turn to port just as I surfaced - it continued at the same very slight rudder position it began with and it was therefore very easy to remain astern of this vessel.

I encountered similar behavior from a Black Swan Frigate. I had hit the frigate with a lucky magnetic pistol torpedo shot that detonated under its bow gun emplacements (a testimony to the iron steadfastness of the Royal Navy sailors: These men stayed right at their posts despite being on fire). When I surfaced to engage each corvette, the frigate maintained a course away from me while firing with its aft weapons.

I'm wondering now if there isn't something in the escort logic that tells them to move away once they're damaged, or damaged to a certain point. If you read my previous post (about 2-3 up), you'll see I encountered the same situation earlier. For that matter, this logic might be built into all computer-controlled ships.

I suppose the next test would be to surface behind a Flower Corvette while holding fire, to see if the corvette turns to bring its larger fore deck gun to bear. Any takers?

One last bit of information: It appears that the deck gun is not affected by wave action when it is oriented to fire directly over the bow. I tested this tonight by firing at a large cargo ship. No matter whether the bow was up, down, or level, my shots hit in the same place. In retrospect, this is probably why I was able to hit that Flower Corvette from 3500 meters out in 7 knot seas at speed - I was firing over the bow each time.

It is my sincere hope that this information is coming across as collegial constructive criticism rather than as complaints. I'm having a great time playing NYGM 2.2!

Oh, and by the way, kudos to whoever did the enhanced pyrotechnics. Just before exiting the game, I decided to see if I could hit that fleeing Black Swan Frigate with a magnetic pistol torpedo from dead astern at about 3600 meters. Lucky shot again (very lucky), and I was rewarded with a series of beautiful explosions and fireballs. Absolutely stunning - I wish I had recorded it!

10-19-06, 02:42 PM	#18
SubConscious Frogman Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 309 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	I had an interesting experience last night related to this thread, so I thought I'd resurrect it. First, I should probably admit that I'm not using manual targeting yet. Ok, so I received a wireless that a large convoy had been spotted heading east, just north of my position. On my way to intercept, I encountered a large merchant heading west. If you’ve ever tried to sink an 8000GRT outbound merchant with a deck gun, my advice is to not attempt it. It took forever to sink, but that’s another story. I finally get into position ahead of the convoy and start assessing the situation. The conditions are just about perfect: November 1939, Winds 7 knots, light fog, about 1am. There is a Flower Corvette ahead of the convoy and a large Auxiliary warship in the center row of the convoy, bringing up the rear. I can’t see any other warships, so I take a quick dive to determine if my Sonarman can pick up anything. No other escorts were detected. I then move to get ahead of the convoy, positioning myself so I can take out the medium tanker and large cargo ships at the center. The boat is running at 7 Knots, 1 Knot faster than the convoy, and with decks awash at 7 meters depth. Wouldn’t you know it: The Flower Corvette spots me. It doesn’t light up its search lights yet, but it starts steaming right for me at 16 knots. It’s decision time, but I’m tired, as it’s 1am in real time as well. Rather than just exit the game and save the battle for tomorrow, I decide to try to take out the Flower Corvette in a running gun battle. Yeah, I was pretty tired. As I’m not using manual targeting, I was able to look thorough my periscope and determine the enemy was about 4000 meters away and closing fast. I respond by turning to face the enemy while ordering emergency reverse. My logic here is to minimize my profile to the enemy while maximizing the time I’ll have to fire. The deck gun crew gets set up for a 3500 meter shot, but the boat is pitching wildly in the 7 Knot seas. I have found firing directly over the bow to be the most difficult for this reason. Still, I’m considering this the lesser of two evils (the other being presenting a juicy broadside to the Corvette’s cannons), so I try to time the shot so the barrel of the 88mm is just right and with the Corvette’s shells screaming overhead, I fired… …and I hit him. Not just once, I nailed him 3-4 times in short succession (missing about 30% of the time). This is the interesting point, and the reason for this post: The Flower Corvette, now at 2500 meters and closing fast, decides to turn away. No kidding – the escort turned completely around and started steaming directly away from me. Now wide awake, I order flank speed ahead to try to catch her. I’m still firing the 88mm deck gun like a madman and I can see that I’m scoring hits, as the Corvette is now burning both fore and aft. She makes a hard turn to port to bring her guns back into play when a final 88mm shell slams into her… …and I receive the notice from my watch officer that “She’s going down!” I couldn’t believe it. I had to pause to read the line several times just to make certain it wasn’t my imagination. My boat didn’t take any hits during the engagement, though there were a few near misses. Very, very lucky… The really cool part of this encounter was when the Corvette turned away. I’m assuming that there was something added to the code to make them attempt to escape from a losing battle, though I suppose it could have been a fluke. Still, it was a LOT of fun, regardless of how silly the act was. Oh, and by the way, with that Flower Corvette out of the way, my VIIB was like a fox in the henhouse. I ended up sinking that auxiliary warship, the medium tanker and two large cargos. Having run out of eels, I surfaced and spent my remaining 21 deck gun rounds on a medium cargo ship, which gave up the ghost after the final round found home. I guess it’s time to move to manual targeting, but I’m having a blast. Last edited by SubConscious; 10-19-06 at 02:44 PM.

10-27-06, 09:04 AM	#19
SubConscious Frogman Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 309 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	I have been playing around a bit with Flower Corvettes and I think they need some help. It's actually very easy to sink them if you surface behind them and pound away with the deck gun. It's easy because they don't bother to try to turn to bring their forward deck gun into play - they continue on their current course. It's easy to take out the rear gunner, as the poor fellow is virtually unprotected. The forward gunners then just shoot into the water to either side, as if they're trying to engage the enemy, but the ship can't maneuver. I've tried this in four tests and the result was the same. I find this interesting in that if a Flower Corvette spots me on the surface, it comes right in for the kill. Similarly, if I surface in front of the ship, it blasts away (albeit rather inaccurately). Surfacing behind them appears to really throw the escort logic for a loop. I suppose there is some possibility that my first round takes out steerage, as I first try to take out that rear machine gunner and searchlight, but I think this is unlikely. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it just a fluke? Last edited by SubConscious; 10-27-06 at 09:18 AM.

10-17-06, 12:03 AM	#16
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Few comments: 1. Unbelievable that being on the bottom has no effect on your ability to be detected. While it certainly didn't (hence shouldn't) grant immunity to detection, lying on the bottom DID have an effect on how easy a U-boat was to detect based on... - depth - 'type' of bottom (rocky, sandy, cluttered - weeds, debris etc.) - local conditions (current, presence of water-borne particulate matter) Being near river estuaries, for example, would play merry hell with ASDIC due to different temperatures, salinity and debris in water. 2. The mod is a clever addition and DOES add uncertainty. I've run across (or they ran across me?) 2-3 DDs patrolling, slipped by them, then had them contact me again some hours later as they - presumably - head off on another leg of their search pattern. No more "right, got past them, end of problem!". 3. Stupid that AI doesn't use active regularly, as common doctrine was to run it always AFAIK. Sure, the escort will be detected, but then a U-boat will always hear an escort before the latter hears it, and the active means there is a real danger area around an escort, addin to its deterrance value. 4. Very interesting to hear about how the AI works with detection etc, and the pic from Ducimus is a beauty. Having great fun with NYGM 2.2!

10-17-06, 03:40 PM	#17
Der Teddy Bar Blade Master Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,388 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Though it does not show it in the pictures above, the number and areas that the escorts cover ramps up over the years. For example Scapa Flow will not be a walk in the park but is achievable until the date of the original attack when the escorts are ramped up. The same goes for various other coastal regions. NYGM will be doing the BIE Mod for other regions such as Gibraltar, of course it would then be the GE Mod The BIE Mod will be re-evaluated after more feedback from the WaW patrols and various forums. It is great to hear the enjoyment that you are all getting out of the NYGM TW 2.2 Mod

10-27-06, 11:20 PM	#22
SubConscious Frogman Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 309 Downloads: 102 Uploads: 0	Addendum: I tried this again tonight against two separate Flower Corvettes and had the same results. In each case I surfaced aft of the corvette and opened fire with my deck gun. The corvettes made no attempt to maneuver, though they did engage me with their stern weapons (while they lasted). One of the corvettes had started to turn to port just as I surfaced - it continued at the same very slight rudder position it began with and it was therefore very easy to remain astern of this vessel. I encountered similar behavior from a Black Swan Frigate. I had hit the frigate with a lucky magnetic pistol torpedo shot that detonated under its bow gun emplacements (a testimony to the iron steadfastness of the Royal Navy sailors: These men stayed right at their posts despite being on fire). When I surfaced to engage each corvette, the frigate maintained a course away from me while firing with its aft weapons. I'm wondering now if there isn't something in the escort logic that tells them to move away once they're damaged, or damaged to a certain point. If you read my previous post (about 2-3 up), you'll see I encountered the same situation earlier. For that matter, this logic might be built into all computer-controlled ships. I suppose the next test would be to surface behind a Flower Corvette while holding fire, to see if the corvette turns to bring its larger fore deck gun to bear. Any takers? One last bit of information: It appears that the deck gun is not affected by wave action when it is oriented to fire directly over the bow. I tested this tonight by firing at a large cargo ship. No matter whether the bow was up, down, or level, my shots hit in the same place. In retrospect, this is probably why I was able to hit that Flower Corvette from 3500 meters out in 7 knot seas at speed - I was firing over the bow each time. It is my sincere hope that this information is coming across as collegial constructive criticism rather than as complaints. I'm having a great time playing NYGM 2.2! Oh, and by the way, kudos to whoever did the enhanced pyrotechnics. Just before exiting the game, I decided to see if I could hit that fleeing Black Swan Frigate with a magnetic pistol torpedo from dead astern at about 3600 meters. Lucky shot again (very lucky), and I was rewarded with a series of beautiful explosions and fireballs. Absolutely stunning - I wish I had recorded it!