Iraqi's wishes are no argument to leave troops in Iraq

[scandium]

Originally Posted by mog

Even if you don't care about innocent Iraqi civilians, how on earth do you think it wise to let Iraq become another terrorist state that would almost certainly back attacks against the West and Israel?

What you just don't get is that Iraq has already been turned into precisely just that; pre-invasion it was a weak, contained, sovereign and secular dictatorship. Saddam Hussein, whatever his other failings, had no love for religious extremism within his borders and took pains to ruthlessly crush and supress any kind of extremism in Iraq, religious based or otherwise since it posed a threat to his power. Now that he's been removed, and the Iraqi civil service and military disbanded, a power vacuum was instantly created with the U.S. military presence serving as a powerful rallying point for the Imans and Jihads to rally the ordinary Iraqis (and former, now unemployed soldiers) against and it also served as an ideal battlefield for foreign Jihadists to easily cross its porous borders and take the fight to the U.S.

Bad trade off for the Iraqis, who are dying in far greater numbers than under Hussein even when he was at his most brutal (while the rest are simply worse off in every way and ideal prey for Jihadi rhetoric), bad trade off for the U.S. which has invested 2600+ now dead true patriots and over a trillion dollars for nothing more than billions in no-bid contracts for Halliburton and Co., and bad trade for the region which has become further destabilized with new generations ready to be indoctrinated into Jihad and get live fire training to practice and perfect their tactics... and bad trade for all of us because they will export their new experience and methods and recruits to our soil soon enough.

Remove the U.S. military and if nothing else you remove the rallying cause, because keeping them there is already pointless. That war is already lost and was lost years ago.

[mog]

Originally Posted by scandium

What you just don't get is that Iraq has already been turned into precisely just that; pre-invasion it was a weak, contained, sovereign and secular dictatorship. Saddam Hussein, whatever his other failings, had no love for religious extremism within his borders and took pains to ruthlessly crush and supress any kind of extremism in Iraq, religious based or otherwise since it posed a threat to his power. Now that he's been removed, and the Iraqi civil service and military disbanded, a power vacuum was instantly created with the U.S. military presence serving as a powerful rallying point for the Imans and Jihads to rally the ordinary Iraqis (and former, now unemployed soldiers) against and it also served as an ideal battlefield for foreign Jihadists to easily cross its porous borders and take the fight to the U.S.

Bad trade off for the Iraqis, who are dying in far greater numbers than under Hussein even when he was at his most brutal (while the rest are simply worse off in every way and ideal prey for Jihadi rhetoric), bad trade off for the U.S. which has invested 2600+ now dead true patriots and over a trillion dollars for nothing more than billions in no-bid contracts for Halliburton and Co., and bad trade for the region which has become further destabilized with new generations ready to be indoctrinated into Jihad and get live fire training to practice and perfect their tactics... and bad trade for all of us because they will export their new experience and methods and recruits to our soil soon enough.

Remove the U.S. military and if nothing else you remove the rallying cause, because keeping them there is already pointless. That war is already lost and was lost years ago.

Better that the terrorists are attacking well armed and trained US soldiers than unarmed and defenceless US civilians. Remove the target in Iraq, and the Jihadists will simply move on to kill Americans somewhere else. Withdrawing won't solve anything.

[Skybird]

there wouldn't be so many terrorists wanting to strike at Westerner - if Iraq would not have b een crushed. I know that jihaddism was growing before, but it grew at much slower pace. AL has the same argument like you: that it is good to have terrorist's attemntion fixated to Iraq. But that is a complete nonstarter. first it is not that terrorists are only being active in Iraq: terrorist activity thorughout the West has massively increased, not decreased. second, withiout the war in Iraq there wouldn't be so many terrorists than there are today. Although some of them get killed, the recruit more young man in a given time than the loose in fighting. You are totally offtracks here, and additonally ignore the opinion of all 16 intel sevices of the US who also reported a grow, not a fall, in terror activity worldwide.

With every day you stay there, you actively assist in creating more terrorists. By your sheer presence. It is so very, very stupid. Like cutting heads off a hydra. but for each head falling, two new ones are raising. So - who is winning this: the sword-swinging hero, or the hydra?

It all is a giant miscalculation so far.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

there wouldn't be so many terrorists wanting to strike at Westerner - if Iraq would not have b een crushed. I know that jihaddism was growing before, but it grew at much slower pace. AL has the same argument like you: that it is good to have terrorist's attemntion fixated to Iraq. But that is a complete nonstarter. first it is not that terrorists are only being active in Iraq: terrorist activity thorughout the West has massively increased, not decreased. second, withiout the war in Iraq there wouldn't be so many terrorists than there are today

A theory that is easy to claim since it relies upon fiction.

It's like saying Nazi Germany would have eventually become a peaceful nation and a benefit to the world if it had won the war and gotten the "lebensraum" it so craved, or that the Japanese "East Asian co-prosperity sphere" would have brought a new era of progress to the world. Maybe the victims of Soviet and Red Chinese aggression would agree with that.

But you yourself have many times said that Muhammedians do not respect weakness. Without the war in Iraq we could just as easily be facing not only increased numbers of terrorists but also a rearmed and aggressive Iraq. Prove otherwise.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

We'll leave Iraq when Iran is good and ready to be invaded.

Isn't that the plain and simple truth.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Isn't that the plain and simple truth.

In the mean time.



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[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

A theory that is easy to claim since it relies upon fiction.

Prove that. And don't come with the many ridiculous statements that Bush has made and that he never cared to show up with evidence for. Iraq was no danger for anyone. It was unpleasant, it was a dictatorship, it was balking, but was unable to bite beyond it's borders. Iraq war had been written doen in neoconagenda roughly ten years before we even started to think about terrorism. you see yourself having no choice than to stick to these absurd views about WOT and how much good has been done when attacking Iraq - for you will never accept to admit that it was a mistake and that you followed your leaders on the basis of always unproven claims and unrealistic fantasies. And that huge dark spot you will not accept to ruin your jacket. we are talking about a hurt ego here.

There is more terror activity worldwide and more people willing to act and participate in terror strikes than before, and the cause of that is directly linked to the Iraq war and the many mistakes being made there, and the ongoing American presence there. Which also has been a concolusion in the leaked parts of that intel community's report on assessements. That is no fiction, that is fact. We had several threads related to that in the last two weeks. I posted there. I am not repeating that all again. We also had reports from highest ranking officers of the army, and the community of 16 intel services coming to the same conclusions like what I say: Iraq's perspective is dark, there is more terror, not less. I even do not mention the many, many reports from individual soldiers reporting on low morale and growing anger and lacking orientation amongst troops in Iraq, as they have been seen in medias, newsppapers, amgazines, on TV, internet sources, for you would wave it off anyway as being "subjective" only, and individual voices only, and not officially representative.

You dream, and you believe Bush&Co. Both is not good. And fellow citizens of yours as well as millions of civilians in Iraq are paying the price for that murderous dreamdancing.

Senior military officers characterize the situation in Iraq as unwinnable. US Intel services agree of terror spreading, not declining. US commitee confirms that it has not found any links between 9/11 and Al Quaeda, and Saddam. Violance in Iraq is constantly increasing. Number of Iraqis (both Shia and Sunni) openly expressing their hostility at the Us occupation is constantly cliombing. they want the Sharia as constitution, no western-style laws. Hezbollah challenged Israel and brough Israel attack to a halt. Hamas and Al Mahdi army are reforming and re-supllying by the example of hezbollah. Oolice and intel agencies thorughout europe report increasing fundamentlaism in all Western countries, and a growing number of sleepers and potential terror cell.

WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED; AUGUST...??? I must prove you nothing. But you must proove that all these facts from reality are not true. and please, no Bush quotes. his reputation of seeing things realistic is not the best, to put it mildly.

Ah, better: no, don't care to take the time. we had this debate so often, and in vain. I have started to be bored of it. I only wish you would have sticked to Afghnaistan, and wpould have made sure that things are growing under your security umbrella. Instead you shifted forces and attacked Iraq, the orginally meant target, but then came 9/11. Look where Afghanistan is now, and don't tell me that things are improving.

[Dave Kay]

Probably not going to make many friends here by saying this, but as much as I care about the war and politics involved, I have to wonder; why is SubSim allowing itself to become a a politcal forum? And I digress...

[Skybird]

It's only allowed in the General Topics forum. And usually all people obey that rule - voluntarily, or because mods enforce it.

[Perilscope]

Originally Posted by Dave Kay

...why is SubSim allowing itself to become a a politcal forum? And I digress...

Almost any websites with a forum have a general topic section, and it is about general talk. Almost anything goes. And since our daily life there is politics, well it won't escape our daily postings.

In addition, if you read the "terms of use" the owner does not endorse what's posted in the forum, among other things...

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Prove that.

Easy enough Skybird. What the world would, or will, be like had Saddam been allowed to remain in power is, and can be nothing but, pure speculation. You can make lengthy boring posts citing whichever so called experts happen to fit your opinions of the moment but it "proves" absolutely nothing.

The history of man is filled with prognostications from various "experts" just as authorative as those you anonymously cite, yet they were just as wrong.

A few examples i just happen to have on my computer:

•"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year."
- The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957.

"Bell expects that the public will use his instrument without the aid of trained operators. Any telegraph engineer will at once see the fallacy of this plan. The public simply cannot be trusted to handle technical communications equipment. Bell's instrument uses nothing but the voice, which cannot be captured in concrete form… we leave it to you to judge whether any sensible man would transact his affairs by such a means of communications. In conclusion the committee feels that it must advise against any investment whatever in Bell's scheme."
- Minutes of a Western Union meeting, circa 1880

•"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

Easy enough Skybird. What the world would, or will, be like had Saddam been allowed to remain in power is, and can be nothing but, pure speculation. You can make lengthy boring posts citing whichever so called experts happen to fit your opinions of the moment but it "proves" absolutely nothing.

If you don't have more than only nothing I wonder why you even show up and tell people they are all wrong and should prove what they say. Maybe I make lengthy boring posts, but you only have to say you beloieve this or that - and do not care to check if your beliefs cform a consistent system that is in congruence with other hints from other source, and macthes reality. Now you declare success of operation - for people not knowing what would have happened if Saddam would have been left alone. That is no logic, but circular argument only, a cheap trick only. at the same time when you say noone can know - you declare success the mess that was created. How can you do that when you say that nobody knows the alternative'S outcome - which means you cannot compare both alterntaives and thus judge which one is the better one...? you are contradicting yourself, only to evade amditting the total failure of the calculation towards the Iraq formula. If the military and intel guys would assist your beliefs, you would hail them, but since they violate your belief what it should have been, you declare all of them as incompetent fools who have to say nothing.

August - it is laughable what you do. Can't you see that yourself...?

Anyway, this part of the debate is a deja vu only. So forgive that I leave you alone with your private fancies.

[Happy Times]

I dont have anything against the invasion itself but the way it has been handeled. Also if they had to invade something, i would have liked it to been Saudi Arabia.:p But as i am a foreigner and have no political power i dont stress about it that much. Id rather have USA as the only super power than China, Russia and etc... And not all europeans are wussies. (Didnt mean Skybird, he could be even breaking some German laws with his analysis of Islam.)

[Yahoshua]

I think my post got lost in here somewhere but oh well......Good shooting by the Apache gunner.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by scandium

What you just don't get is that Iraq has already been turned into precisely just that; pre-invasion it was a weak, contained, sovereign and secular dictatorship. Saddam Hussein, whatever his other failings, had no love for religious extremism within his borders and took pains to ruthlessly crush and supress any kind of extremism in Iraq, religious based or otherwise since it posed a threat to his power. Now that he's been removed, and the Iraqi civil service and military disbanded, a power vacuum was instantly created with the U.S. military presence serving as a powerful rallying point for the Imans and Jihads to rally the ordinary Iraqis (and former, now unemployed soldiers) against and it also served as an ideal battlefield for foreign Jihadists to easily cross its porous borders and take the fight to the U.S.

Bad trade off for the Iraqis, who are dying in far greater numbers than under Hussein even when he was at his most brutal (while the rest are simply worse off in every way and ideal prey for Jihadi rhetoric), bad trade off for the U.S. which has invested 2600+ now dead true patriots and over a trillion dollars for nothing more than billions in no-bid contracts for Halliburton and Co., and bad trade for the region which has become further destabilized with new generations ready to be indoctrinated into Jihad and get live fire training to practice and perfect their tactics... and bad trade for all of us because they will export their new experience and methods and recruits to our soil soon enough.

Remove the U.S. military and if nothing else you remove the rallying cause, because keeping them there is already pointless. That war is already lost and was lost years ago.

So you prove the wickedness of your own thinking here and can't even see it.If we behave like Saddam did and rule this immoral Muslim people with an Iron Hand and make them submit or die....this is the Roman mentality of the past.What you suggest is to abandon the women and children,the sick and elderly,the imfirmed and give them over to the wolf on a silver platter...is that what your superior thinking has lead you to believe Scandium or Skybird?

Your "I told you so" mentality is frankly a little annoying. It is easy to see what you see.You point out the obvious.You condemn my president on 9/11 in his reaction and yet he re-acted EXACTLY like ALL Americans did.We were arrogant in our thinking that this tradegy could never happen to America.It was our wake up call.We are awake now...and your call to abandon the Iraqi people now is worse than staying.It is unaccpetable to me to simply leave.We,Americans I think are not really concerned with what the rest of the World thinks we will act on our own behalf and go it alone if neccessary because that's who we are.We do not ask for your permission or help.We are survivors.We have survived all the past tribulations we will survive the ones to come.

Anything worth a damn is worth fighting for.Peace is worth fighting for.Freedom is worth fighting for.Fighting against evil is worth fighting for.The men I see calling for the utter destruction of Israel and America are Evil.I have yet to see President Bush call for the destruction of Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran or North Korea....

You live in the fantasy land you choose to Scandium or Skybird....a spade is a spade.These men who blow themselves up in the name of God need to be met head on....I myself prefer to meet them in they're own lands now instead of my own.I agree there is no easy solution they're never is is there but leaving is not an option.I agree the extreme Muslims will NEVER change...and to stay will most surley bring more innocent deaths on all sides but to leave is more insane than staying and you gotta know that.