Take that, you flyboys.

[LoBlo]

Technology is evening the score. Take that you airjockey flyboys with your with your sonabuoys of doom! Bet you don't feel to safe to be flying up there in the sky anymore.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/mi...TE=Feb+6,+2006

Originally Posted by Brock McCaman, Vice president of Raytheon Missile Systems

Successfully demonstrating the AIM-9X lock-on-after-launch mode from a vertical orientation launch is a major step toward providing our submariners with an unprecedented offensive and defensive capability. It's another example of the tactical flexibility of this proven weapon system.

For those too lazy to read the link, its basically a successful test of a new vertically launched SAM that is hoped to eventually be equipped on Subs. Its one step closer to subs being able to finally defend itself against ASW aircraft when desperate measures are needed.

"I'm sorry, but were you trying to hunt me with your sonobuoys? KABLOOOOOM!!!!"

[LoBlo]

Just FYI for those interested, Raytheon, the company developing the missile above, is also the company that makes a whole plethora of successful missile systems. The SM-2, Tomahawk, Evolved Sea Sparrow, Maverick, RAM, HARM, and Sidewinder are all Raytheon missile systems.

http://www.raytheon.com/cgi-bin/urlsrch.pl

[goldorak]

There is a long way between a test and having them as operational weapons. :rotfl:
So bubbleheads stay low, very low else KABOOM from a nice mk 46. :p

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by goldorak

There is a long way between a test and having them as operational weapons. :rotfl:
So bubbleheads stay low, very low else KABOOM from a nice mk 46. :p

Your time is numbered flyboy. Enjoy it while you can, its just a matter of time!
Pilot 1: "Lets hunt some subs."
Copilot: "Yeah I hate subs, I can hunt those guys all day, lets do it. Looks theres one on the Sonobuoy."
Pilot 1: "Lets get him!.... hey wait a minute, what's that pume of smoke? Oh NOOOO!!!"
KAPLOW!

You should play *my* version of DW. I'm already going to put them in game. :p

[Driftwood]

Man, this WOULD be nice to add this capability to DW!

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Driftwood

Man, this WOULD be nice to add this capability to DW!

there is already this capability, and fortunately Luftwolf in his mod is going to tone down a bit this *cheat*.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

For those too lazy to read the link, its basically a successful test of a new vertically launched SAM that is hoped to eventually be equipped on Subs. Its one step closer to subs being able to finally defend itself against ASW aircraft when desperate measures are needed.

"I'm sorry, but were you trying to hunt me with your sonobuoys? KABLOOOOOM!!!!"

You know... it's funny you should bring this up. I was talking to a coworker about this the other day. It seems that the past four wars have seriously depleted the US stores of tomahawk cruise missiles. While they're rebuilding the inventory, a lot of people have been trying to figure out ways to sell stuff to fit in those empty VLS tubes, considering that right now, they're often just filled with ballast.

One of the things they have been trying to sell is a verticle launch, encapsulated AIM-9X. The thing is, nobody is quite sure what they'd really do with it. So... things being what they are, the funded R&D of it as a possible new weapon system (the Navy is all about new toys), but it lacks CONOPS. The concensus in the submarine community is that depth is their best defense against aircraft. So, they're thinking all kinds of weird things, "uhm.... air defense for SOF? uhm... outer air battle?" Who knows? Personally, I think it'll be a neat PowerPoint slide, but nothing will actually reach the fleet.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

One of the things they have been trying to sell is a verticle launch, encapsulated AIM-9X. The thing is, nobody is quite sure what they'd really do with it. So... things being what they are, the funded R&D of it as a possible new weapon system (the Navy is all about new toys), but it lacks CONOPS. The concensus in the submarine community is that depth is their best defense against aircraft. So, they're thinking all kinds of weird things, "uhm.... air defense for SOF? uhm... outer air battle?" Who knows? Personally, I think it'll be a neat PowerPoint slide, but nothing will actually reach the fleet.

Well, what Raytheon is proporting is that the AIM-9 series is pretty established, and the VLS sytems are pretty established, so why not bring two established systems together to see if they will work together? Just some software modifications & a cheap launch capsule and its ready for testing.

I think the CONOPs is that if a ASW aircraft has already detected you, last layer defense is to blow him up before he can drop a torp. Or if he's already dropped a torp, then evade and blow him out the water before he can drop another one. There's a pretty good chance that the submarine communities current concensus is such because.... its the only option they're ever had...

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Well, what Raytheon is proporting is that the AIM-9 series is pretty established, and the VLS sytems are pretty established, so why not bring two established systems together to see if they will work together? Just some software modifications & a cheap launch capsule and its ready for testing.

I think the CONOPs is that if a ASW aircraft has already detected you, last layer defense is to blow him up before he can drop a torp. Or if he's already dropped a torp, then evade and blow him out the water before he can drop another one. There's a pretty good chance that the submarine communities current concensus is such because.... its the only option they're ever had...

Submarines are designed to operate under the surface.
It was the german type XXI which revolutionized and made a paradigm shift in the way submarines were designed and utilized in modern warfare.
Up to then subs were basically surface ships, who went underwater only in the attack phase.
Maybe raytheon should go back in time and try to sell surface to air missiles to us fleet subs. :rotfl:
I don't see any utility for surface to air missiles on subs.
To fire you have to be on the surface, and you become vulnerable to surface to surface missiles.
Did you forget those existed ?
The existence of a sub is to be underwater for extended periods of time, carry out the mission as stealthily as possibile, attack as stealthily as possibile etc... and never surface.
Wasn't that the concept behind a submarine nuclear fleet ?
Adding surface to air missiles just negates the purpose of a submarine.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Submarines are designed to operate under the surface. It was the german type XXI which revolutionized and made a paradigm shift in the way submarines were designed and utilized in modern warfare. Up to then subs were basically surface ships, who went underwater only in the attack phase. Maybe raytheon should go back in time and try to sell surface to air missiles to us fleet subs. :rotfl:I don't see any utility for surface to air missiles on subs. To fire you have to be on the surface, and you become vulnerable to surface to surface missiles. Did you forget those existed ? The existence of a sub is to be underwater for extended periods of time, carry out the mission as stealthily as possibile, attack as stealthily as possibile etc... and never surface. Wasn't that the concept behind a submarine nuclear fleet ? Adding surface to air missiles just negates the purpose of a submarine.

What your missing is the fact that, as clearly written in the article above, these systems aren't intended to be fired while surfaced, but rather designed to be launched from VLS tubes while submerged in the same manner that all other VLS ordinance in deployed.

Modern US defensive systems are constructed around a multilayered defensive strategy whenever possible. When threatened use X, if that fails use Y, if that fails as well use Z. If that fails your toast. Whenever you get to option Z your already in bad shape and things don't look good, but it does give another layer of defense and increases chances of surviving a hostile encounter.

Currently SSN defense against ASW aircraft threats aren't multilayered at all. There exist one, and only one option. If that fails there are no alternatives. Employing a system to provide last ditch alternatives to a 2billion dollar platform is not a bad thing if the option avails itself. Especially if all the hardware required already exist.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I think it's a bad idea. It tempts modern SSNs to play flak U-Boat with a $1 billion plus platform. Going shallow and slow is not exactly the best place to play the "last ditch" card against airborne ASW.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Currently SSN defense against ASW aircraft threats aren't multilayered at all. There exist one, and only one option. If that fails there are no alternatives. Employing a system to provide last ditch alternatives to a 2billion dollar platform is not a bad thing if the option avails itself. Especially if all the hardware required already exist.

The concept of a multilayered defense is designed around the quality of the layers. The idea is that one layer is unable to stop an acceptable fraction of incomming attacks. From what I can tell, most US submariners are pretty happy with the quality of their one layer, though.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

I think the CONOPs is that if a ASW aircraft has already detected you, last layer defense is to blow him up before he can drop a torp.

If he hasn't dropped a torpedo then how do you know he's detected you? You're better off to go deep and hope he doesn't detect you, than to shoot a short ranged missile against an aircraft that is probably not very tightly localized and make absolute CERTAIN that he's detected you.

Or if he's already dropped a torp, then evade and blow him out the water before he can drop another one.

Okay... think DW... you successfully evade a torpedo, how long does that take? A few minutes. An aircraft can travel at over 200kts, the aircraft could be ANYWHERE by that time. You can't shoot a missile with a range of only a couple miles and have a decent chance of hitting an airplane immediately after dodging a torpedo. It doesn't make any sense.

There's a pretty good chance that the submarine communities current concensus is such because.... its the only option they're ever had...

I don't see that. My experience is that the submarine community, right now, is probably among the most willing to do all kinds of weird things. I just don't see how they're supposed to rationally employ the missile. I mean.. it's great that they're able to do it, and I think it's worth the money spent as an R&D project, but I'm not sure it's worth the money as an operational weapons system.