I Hate Single Ship Contacts!!!!

Originally Posted by Brewster Pilot

Ahh LOL!

As English ain't my mother tongue so to say I understood your question completely wrong!

I'm sorry for my angry manner, welcome to the Subsim.com forums and as a note, I'm not usually this "unwelcoming" but you see my sub, U-53 had just been sunk and I was a bit angry and upset. Hope you understand.

LOL...No problem... I'm sure I would be no good at Finish!

[mheil]

". . . Feathersword??"- that's from the Wiggles! Got a young one myself

On the single ship contacts debate, I'm reading lots of things like: "well, it could happen, might happen, " etc....

But if you read any Biography of a U-Boat Commander or Account of a U-Boat's Experience you will find the same conclusion: The Single Ships they found and sunk, were ones they just happened across by surprise. No advance warning. BDU sent out Contact Reports about Convoys, not single ships. When a single ship was found it was attacked and sunk. That's it.

I'm not talking about how things work today, might have worked then, or worked in other theatres of the war. Pick up a U-Boat Commander's Auto-Biography and READ!!!!!

I love having single ships in the game, and love it even more when I get a surprising "Ship Sighted" Call out of the blue!

[Eichenlaub]

I think I read in "The Battle of the Atlantic" by David Williams (accompanying the BBC-documentary on the U-boat war) that in 1942, Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 was directed to a stationary single ship somewhere while on Drumbeat patrol. When he found the ship, two Allied DD's were circling it, ready to engage the sub as soon as he showed himself. Hardegen got this report from BdU, so on occasion, single ship targets were relayed to the commanders at sea.
By the way, Hardegen suspected the trap and slid away. The Allies had ascertained U-123's position due to ULTRA.

I do feel though that single ship contacts are too prevalent in SHIII. If you go on a mission, you can intercept a dozen or so in a matter of 2-3 weeks, even as late as 1944. That's not right. My next career will be without the gods' eye mode - we'll see what happens then.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[Seaveins]

Hello all,
I am new to all this, wanted to make a first posting, and love to see any ships at all. I have been patrolling Africa's west coast recently in late '42. I am about ready to torpedo the next rowboat I find! Mission after mission of searching the lanes to no avail. Just to make sure the game was working I sailed straight to Gibraltar, was pegged by radar in a storm, and rammed by a destroyer. All hands lost but at least something happened. Any searching tips out there?

[Mooncatt]

try going to scapa flow or loch ewe (north scotland) sneak into the docks, plenty merchants DD`S for the sinking thereof

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by Magua

On the single ship contacts debate, I'm reading lots of things like: "well, it could happen, might happen, " etc....

But if you read any Biography of a U-Boat Commander or Account of a U-Boat's Experience you will find the same conclusion: The Single Ships they found and sunk, were ones they just happened across by surprise. No advance warning. BDU sent out Contact Reports about Convoys, not single ships. When a single ship was found it was attacked and sunk. That's it.

I'm not talking about how things work today, might have worked then, or worked in other theatres of the war. Pick up a U-Boat Commander's Auto-Biography and READ!!!!!

I love having single ships in the game, and love it even more when I get a surprising "Ship Sighted" Call out of the blue!

Puster Bill understands that Magua is a dog to his single ship contacts. When they appear on his map, he puts down his scope to feed their laziness...

Seriously, though, while it would have been no where near as common as it is in SHIII, I believe B-Dienst did forward intel about single ship movements to BdU. Whether or not BdU decided to transmit them to the U-boats is another story. The only real answer to that would be to search the signal intercepts in the archives of GCHQ, a daunting task for those of us who don't live in the UK. I only know of a few u-boat enigma decrypts that have made it to the web, and most of those dealt with administrivia.

Having said that, the UBootwaffe was a very 'chatty' organization. I find it hard to believe that BdU would send out birthday messages to petty officers on patrol, yet wouldn't forward contact reports they received from B-Dienst.

I have read "U-Boat Commander" by Peter Cremer, "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner, "U-977" by Heinz Schaeffer, and a couple of others that escape me at the moment. I've also read extensively on the history of German SIGINT operations in both WWI and most especially WWII, so I know whereof I speak on that subject (having been in that business as a younger man also helps).

By the way, I love your nick. I have used Magua extensively on Fark. My signature here used to be "When the corvette captain is dead, Magua will eat his heart... etc."

Originally Posted by Puster Bill

Bill understands that Magua is a dog to his single ship contacts. When they appear on his map, he puts down his scope to feed their laziness...

Seriously, though, while it would have been no where near as common as it is in SHIII, I believe B-Dienst did forward intel about single ship movements to BdU. Whether or not BdU decided to transmit them to the U-boats is another story. The only real answer to that would be to search the signal intercepts in the archives of GCHQ, a daunting task for those of us who don't live in the UK. I only know of a few u-boat enigma decrypts that have made it to the web, and most of those dealt with administrivia.

Having said that, the UBootwaffe was a very 'chatty' organization. I find it hard to believe that BdU would send out birthday messages to petty officers on patrol, yet wouldn't forward contact reports they received from B-Dienst.

I have read "U-Boat Commander" by Peter Cremer, "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner, "U-977" by Heinz Schaeffer, and a couple of others that escape me at the moment. I've also read extensively on the history of German SIGINT operations in both WWI and most especially WWII, so I know whereof I speak on that subject (having been in that business as a younger man also helps).

By the way, I love your nick. I have used Magua extensively on Fark. My signature here used to be "When the corvette captain is dead, Magua will eat his heart... etc."

Another Good Book is "Operation Drumbeat", which is the story of Kplt Hardegan off the US Coast in 1942. He sank 10+ Single Ships. (With no help from BDU)

I just downloaded the NYGM MOD. So far so Good. I stumbled upon two single merchants while traveling around Britain and sent them to Davy Jones' Locker.
When the lookout called "Ship Sighted", it just about knocked me out of my chair!
Kind of the same feeling the commanders in the books you listed describe when they happened upon ships.

I like your Magua Lines! Clever!:rotfl:

[Puster Bill]

Originally Posted by Magua

Another Good Book is "Operation Drumbeat", which is the story of Kplt Hardegan off the US Coast in 1942. He sank 10+ Single Ships. (With no help from BDU)

I just downloaded the NYGM MOD. So far so Good. I stumbled upon two single merchants while traveling around Britain and sent them to Davy Jones' Locker.
When the lookout called "Ship Sighted", it just about knocked me out of my chair!
Kind of the same feeling the commanders in the books you listed describe when they happened upon ships.

I like your Magua Lines! Clever!:rotfl:

I have "Operation Drumbeat" by Micheal Gannon. Yeah, no updates from BdU, but DF would have been practically useless out there anyway because of technical reasons. In addition, there wouldn't have been as much need to coordinate traffic off the East Coast of the US as there would have been in Britain.

By the way, if you want an excellent overview of both battles of the Atlantic (WWI and WWII), I recommend V.E. Tarrant's "The U-Boat Offensive, 1914-1945". If you want a flavor of WWI U-Boat operations, Lowell Thomas wrote a book in the 1920's after interviewing several WWI U-Boat commanders. I think it was called "Raiders of the Deep".

"Magua raised his scope to cover it in oil. It is still bright. Only when the tanker is sinking will Magua lower it"

[Puster Bill]

If you are interested in the signals intelligence aspect of the Battle of the Atlantic, "The Codebreakers", "Seizing the Enigma: The Race to Break the German U-Boat Codes 1939-1943", and "Nazi Spies", all by David Kahn, are worth a read. The last two are especially informative.

I would expect that when SHIV comes out your objection would be less, as US sub commanders got much better intelligence than u-boat commanders.

In my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....none. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been".

Using single ships contacts sailing around the map turns the sim into an Arcade Game. If you want realism and experience close to what a real U-Boat Commander had to do don't use them.

Its is still possible in the game to find single ships. They are in the shipping lanes. DIving on occassion to do a sound check can pick them up also. Otto Kretschmer's standard procedure was to dive for two hours every morning before dawn to do sound checks. That method has worked for me to find single ships several times.

Magua has spoken.

[Phylacista]

After all this discussing is there simply a way to get rid of the single ship contact while still using gods eye mode?

So it will be to everyones liking...

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by Magua

My final thoughts on the subject are that in my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....never. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been".

You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):

As the U-boats of the first wave drew close to the North American coast, B-dienst picked up the distress call of a Greek vessel that had dropped out of a convoy 180 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Dönitz notified Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 and authorized him to investigate if he was no more than 150 miles away. Although Hardegen was over twice that distance from the stricken ship, he ignored the restriction and closed on the position, eager for a kill. But when he found the Greek, she was surrounded by a tug and two "destroyers," an enemy force that cooled Hardegen's ardor. He aborted the attack and resumed his slow, one-engine journey to New York, regretting this brash and useless expenditure of fuel.

I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo

[Englebert Endrass]

Afaik the greatest tonnage sunk by Uboats in WWII came from attacks on independantly routed ships (IRS). Due to the intractability of the Admiralty and them not wanting to learn lessons from WWI this meant that the convoy system was not implemented as fully in early times as it was later.

It was even worse situation in WWI apparently.

Of course turning to the original question how to modify the game, sorry I am unable to help on that issue other than I would turn off the God's eye mode. Up to each how they want to play and modify the game, but for me IRS was part of the scenario and I search for them by use of the sound gear and regular dive/stop/listen routines. Usually pick up a contact before the map is updated with the contact. Of course what you then get is that you immediately know Allied/Axis/Neutral when in reality you would have to track down and identify. Guess its a realism factor.

Hence when I get to the Dead is Dead stage in this, my first career, I'll go back and wind up the realism factor which is around 50% ish, forget the exact figure.

My 2p's worth anyway fwiw.

Englebert

Originally Posted by Pablo

You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):

I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo

Yep, happened one time in six years of the war... The only documented case. The broken rudder steamer was sitting there sending out lots of distress calls.

Now I wonder how many times they found single merchants with no help from BDU......hmmmm Now that would be more common. I guess then the question is should single ship contacts be used in the game, when there is only one case of it happening historically?

But the book you mentioned is an excellent source for seeing how many ships U-Boats actually sunk. If you look in the appendix (page 709 Volume 1) you will find tables listing how many ships each U-Boat sunk on their patrols. It is broken down by each U-Boat, month by month. You will see that the numbers of ships sunk by each U-Boat are low. The average number of ships sunk per U-Boat per patrol up until May 1940 was about 3. Now if U-Boat Captains were receiving all of these wonderful single ship contact reports, wouldn't that number be much higher? Even with bad Torps? Many Captains (described in the same book) even described going on entire patrols without any contacts at all!

Now if you want to use single ship contacts in the game then go ahead and do it. But just remember it only for Game Purposes and very difficulty to justify it being Historically Accurate. And really you don't need them anyway to find single ships.