No long range missiles for USN

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

Though goldorak...you keep on harping on about that F117 that got shot down by Serbs. You do realise the F117 isn't invisible to radar, right? Fact remains that out of thousands of sorties, they have still lost only 1 of these planes. That's not bad any way you put it.

I always think it's entertaining how people outside of the US seem to set their expectations of what American technology can do artificially high, and then when it fails to live up to their artificially high expectations, they claim it's no good at all. Bottom line: Serbia ran out of bridges really fast.

And then they try to copy it...

It's like we got all the creative engineers and everyone else is just jealous.

I think the F-117's record is even more impressive considering that it was designed before I was born.

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Except that I believe this F117 was shot down with a stopwatch and small arms... it's not INVISIBLE to the eye, that's the biggest problem.

No, it was shot down by a radar controlled SAM battery. Or so it seems...though the F/A117 is pretty much invisible at night...it's black. And these things primarily fly night sorties...also think the one in Serbia was shot down in the dark. Which pretty much negates small arms and a stopwatch.

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I always think it's entertaining how people outside of the US seem to set their expectations of what American technology can do artificially high, and then when it fails to live up to their artificially high expectations, they claim it's no good at all. Bottom line: Serbia ran out of bridges really fast.

And then they try to copy it...

It's like we got all the creative engineers and everyone else is just jealous.

I think the F-117's record is even more impressive considering that it was designed before I was born.

And that's putting it mildly. I've been in a discussion with both Serbs and Kosovon/Albanian fighters who were there. Every Serb blames the US Airforce (or the Kosovon Airforce as they refer to it) as the only factor for pulling back to pre-war borders. The only reason the Kosovons weren't massacred is because of the US Airforce...their words.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

The only reason the Kosovons weren't massacred is because of the US Airforce...their words.

Go USA.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

No, it was shot down by a radar controlled SAM battery. Or so it seems...though the F/A117 is pretty much invisible at night...it's black. And these things primarily fly night sorties...also think the one in Serbia was shot down in the dark. Which pretty much negates small arms and a stopwatch.

Didn't know that.

Actually, the best color for night flying is grey... the B-2 and the F-117 are painted black for propaganda reasons, at least that's the story I heard.

Who knows... seems like they're enough propaganda on their own.

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Didn't know that.

Actually, the best color for night flying is grey... the B-2 and the F-117 are painted black for propaganda reasons, at least that's the story I heard.

Who knows... seems like they're enough propaganda on their own.

Out of curiosity, how did the story about the stopwatch and small arms go? The F/A117 was shot down by a Soviet SAM radar battery (as you'd imagine in that part of the world)...though was bound to happen sooner or later with the amount of AA they throw at those things.

I've seen a 117 fly overhead in the day time...twice (double flyover)....beautiful planes...very strange indeed. Was supposed to have seen the B2 in 2002 but it was being prepared to bomb Iraq.

edit: Actually, the last line should read "was being prepared to POSSIBLY bomb Iraq". Otherwise conspirators will say the Iraq War was a forgone conclusion in 2002...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

Out of curiosity, how did the story about the stopwatch and small arms go?

There was a line of people with Cell Phones from the base they were taking off from in Italy to accross Yugoslava, they would call in with sightings to their command and after a few sightings they would have a good idea the target for the bomber and ready their weapons to shoot right when he would fly overhead (F-117s have a larger RCS from below).

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

There was a line of people with Cell Phones from the base they were taking off from in Italy to accross Yugoslava, they would call in with sightings to their command and after a few sightings they would have a good idea the target for the bomber and ready their weapons to shoot right when he would fly overhead (F-117s have a larger RCS from below).

Ok...a bit of espionage (done on the cheap) and a bit of eagle-eyeness and a bit of pot luck shooting. Though it does leave many questions. Where do the "small arms" come in? Also, I can understand if the plane flew out of Italy (probably Aviano) it could be spotted (just about...at night remember). But how is anyone over Yugoslavia supposed to spot it at 40,000 feet from the ground? Something nobody tells you....the F/A117 is ghostly quiet...I could barely hear it and that was flying over my head at a height of 200 feet. It's also virtually invisible at night, unless it has it's landing lights on.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

But how is anyone over Yugoslavia supposed to spot it at 40,000 feet from the ground? Something nobody tells you....the F/A117 is ghostly quiet...I could barely hear it and that was flying over my head at a height of 200 feet. It's also virtually invisible at night, unless it has it's landing lights on.

Ironicly they spot it with Radar. From directly below the F-117 is visable on radar if the weather conditions are right (rainy).

[Deadeye313]

I think the F-117 is should still get a gold star for only one getting shot down. I mean, in Red Storm Rising, written back in the 80s, Clancy gave the stealth fighters (he had a fighter/bomber imagined rather than just a bomber) a 2% chance of being shot down. Therefore, after like 50 mission they were losing guys every couple missions.

I think though, with hundreds of sorties flown, and only 1 shot down, the actual odds of killing a stealth fighter/bomber is like next to nil. Granted it wasn't the soviet we were fighting but it was their technology.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Deadeye313

I think the F-117 is should still get a gold star for only one getting shot down.

Well... 1 shot down 1 damaged beyond repair...

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Its just curious that a successor have less speed AND less range than its predessor. I can't think of a another weapon system evolution that has ever showed this trend...

I can think of one example; I recently completed reading U.S. Submarines Since 1945 (An Illustrated Design History) by Norman Friedman (ISBN 1557502609), which details some concerns over the loss of speed between the Permit class and Sturgeon class SSNs.

I know that has absolutely nothing to do with AAMs, but you rang a bell, so I had to answer the door...

TG

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Ironicly they spot it with Radar. From directly below the F-117 is visable on radar if the weather conditions are right (rainy).

Yeah but he was talking about spotting it with binos

Anyway, the F/A117 isn't invisible to radar...never was. It's just a myth. The radar cross-section of the plane is so small, it is equivalent to that of a large bird. But, if they calibrate the radar to pick up small objects such as large birds...and there are no birds in the sky (i.e. night)...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Kurushio

...and there are no birds in the sky (i.e. night)...

Uhhhh what about Owls and Bats genius?

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Uhhhh what about Owls and Bats genius?

By large bird we're talking about an albatros or crane....don't think any bat comes close to those dimensions and only 1 owl I know does (the Eagle Owl)...though what are the chances? Don't think radars are set up to pick up anything smaller then the largest birds out there...even then...can't be easy.