Passing of the Torch

[andy_311]

Originally Posted by Eichenlaub

Despite being new here, I have to respectfully disagree with Ducimus. I checked out the information concerning U-boot successes against aircraft on www.uboat.net, an incredibly reliable website. This link is what you'll need: http://www.uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm.
It's a rundown of encounters between U-boote and Allied air units. The most interesting feature of that page is the total numbers.

I'll summarise here:
97 different U-boote succesfully downed one or more planes, for a total of 125 Allied aircraft shot down. 31 U-boote were lost in the same attack or shortly afterwards (by other forces directed to the U-boot through the plane's crew). The total losses of U-boote to airpower amounted to 220 U-boote. Note that uboat.net gives RAF Coastal Command successes, not all Allied successes. According to Vincent Tarrant's "The U-Boat offensive 1914-1945", total U-boot losses to Allied air units amounted to 382. The ratio of planes lost per U-boot destroyed by airpower is 0,32 or you could say that 3,05 U-boote were destroyed by air units for every airplane destroyed by Unterseeboote. Hardly the 100 or 200 U-boote lost per Allied aircraft as you claim. I realise you were just hazarding a guess (I saw your disclaimer), but as you can see, it was nowhere near as bad as you thought it was in terms of numbers. Furthermore, up until somewhere in 1941 only 2 U-boote were lost to airplanes, so not being afraid of air units until late 1941 is quite reasonable.

Of the 97 succesful U-boote, most claimed a single success, but quite a few (185, 228, 262, 270, 311, 333, 343, 415, 441, 453, 459, 534, 566, 618, 676, 771) achieved two. U-763 either has 2 or 3, U-333 has 3 or 4 and the real champion is -hardly surprising since it was a U-Flakboot- U-256 with 4.
The light nature of the AA weapons of the U-boote ensured that many planes became wrecks some time after the attack and the Kapitän might not have known of his success. Some of the aircraft that fell in combat with Unterseeboote were lost due to their own fault, ie because of their own bombs' explosions or diving down too steeply and failing to pull up. Still, they can be claimed to have been downed under duress of gunfire!

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

Don't get me wrong I do go head to head with aircraft might not shoot a lot of them down (last career I think I shot down about 12 that's between 39-end of war)I don't go head to head with planes come 43 onwards it'd bad enough taking on a convoy without univited guests like the R.A.F or the USAAF and god knows were them p-38s come from I searched the net a no carrier operated them but in later in the war they turn up like a swarm of flies.
Whatever happed to the hellfires?

[Ducimus]

My baisc point was that uboats were not very successfull against aircraft. A better figure to illustrate my point would probably have beene the number of aircraft attacks executed against uboats vs the number of uboat victories against those attacks. Im quite sure that figure would be a marked difference.

[squigian]

Found this; I think it supports your point, Ducimus:

Statistics related to the Kriegsmarine Unterseebootwaffe.

According to Professor Jürgen Rowher, who has made exhaustive studies of the subject, 1 156 U-boats were constructed during the Second World War (this takes no account of 14 captured foreign submarines). Of these only 863 were in operational use. The remainder were either undergoing final fitting, in training or some form of transit to an active U-boat flotilla.

From the total number of U-boats the following statistics have been drawn regarding their fates.
663 lost in combat - 266 by enemy aircraft; 243 by enemy naval units; 46 by combined air and sea attacks; 28 for unknown reasons; 24 by enemy submarines; 18 by mines; 12 scuttled as a direct result of combat damage; 10 scuttled due to the impossibility of regaining a friendly port; 9 sunk by collision; 6 captured for some length of time; 1 sunk by Italian Torpedoboat by mistake.

142 lost (not through combat) - 53 destroyed by bombing in Germany; 34 decommissioned in port before the war's end; 19 scuttled in France or Norway; 16 lost to training accidents; 9 to "friendly" mines; 7 in friendly waters through accidents; 2 handed over to the Japanese; 2 interned in Spain.

Total percentage of U-boats lost: 65% of all boats lost while 77% of operational boats were lost in combat.

365 remaining on date of surrender 8th May 1945 - 201 scuttled in or near friendly port; 114 anchored in friendly port; 30 still at sea, made way to Allied port; 10 at sea returned to Germany; 4 scuttled at sea; 4 in Japanese ports; 2 sailed to Argentina and were interned.

Further to these figures are the interesting observations made by Jak-Mallmann Showell in his book "U-boats under the Swastika" (again based on Rohwer's statistics) that:

* 25 boats attacked and at least damaged 20 or more ships
* 36 boats attacked and at least damaged between 11 and 19 ships
* 70 boats attacked and at least damaged between 6 and 10 ships
* 190 boats attacked and at least damaged between 1 and 5 ships.

Given these figures, 73% of U-boats constructed during the Second World War (including all 1,170 U-boats - whether frontline or training machines) achieved no success against the enemy.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Great post squigian!

[CybrSlydr]

Thank you for the figures.

Is this option something I can edit myself without a hex editor?...

[CybrSlydr]

Bump.

Is this editable by a novice?

As far as u-boats against planes goes, let's forget figures pro and con for a minute and think like a real submarine commander: You don't have to die, but you only get to play one career per year. If you shoot down 175 airplanes during your career, good for you. BUT, if one of them kills you, you don't get to play again for a very long while.

Now, how eager are you to duke it out with aircraft, and how much are you willing to argue this point.



As far as I'm concerned, the deadlier planes are the better. It may or may not be realistic according to numbers, but it would force you to play realistically, which means staying surfaced and fighting as little as possible.

[CybrSlydr]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

As far as u-boats against planes goes, let's forget figures pro and con for a minute and think like a real submarine commander: You don't have to die, but you only get to play one career per year. If you shoot down 175 airplanes during your career, good for you. BUT, if one of them kills you, you don't get to play again for a very long while.

Now, how eager are you to duke it out with aircraft, and how much are you willing to argue this point.



As far as I'm concerned, the deadlier planes are the better. It may or may not be realistic according to numbers, but it would force you to play realistically, which means staying surfaced and fighting as little as possible.

...

So, is it editable by a novice?

[CybrSlydr]

I see.

Thank you.

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by CybrSlydr

...

So, is it editable by a novice?

I wouldn't say editable at the very start, but definitly moddable, if you want to make the game more difficult (Airpower mod). Do you have any mods installed?

To edit the planes properties files you would need SH3 mini tweaker. You can find this in t timetraveler's site (search old posts).

[CybrSlydr]

Thanks VonHelsching.