Black swans

[Keelbuster]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

KB, I lurk north of the patrol grid areas where the convoy routes converge on the map. I just hang around there until one shows up.
Wulfmann

Wulf, interesting - no grid area - I'm thinking like straight N from Narvik? Basically, the grid north of AF? I'll have to go up there any hang around a bit. Those convoys sound juicy (i.e. carriers, liberty, etc). It's just turned '42 in my current career. I'll probably transfer to Bergen late in the year, or ealry '43. I also agree that saving the crew is totally important - especially in that interval before the schnorkel arrives.

Kb

[Wulfmann]

I was referring to north of Scotland outside the grid area where the two different convoy routes converge. North of AF 18-19 (I think from memory)
I missed a convoy as I arrived there tonight and waited for weeks, literally, until another came. This also had an escort carrier which I set a trap for then turned quickly and fired into the convoy. A DE was moving on me from the far outside which allowed me to isolate him for a Homing fish and I very luckly disabled him and not sink him. I only sank one cargo and the Bogue and with the other escorts pissed off I made a fast line to hide near the disabled DE. I almost made it before getting hit hard by one can which dropped me to 66 and serious flooding but before they could line me up for the kill I got next to the DE and waited for about 3 hours while they eventually left. I moved off, sank my protector and headed for Bergen and repairs. This means I am now ready to sail on patrol 7 in Jan 1945. That means better fish as well!
I am hoping to finsih the war but that may be 2 or 3 patrols and the allies get another boost so I must be more carefull than aggresive.
No problem as The Admiral is likely packing to get away from the Russians and will not notice too much!

Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

Dude i am having mad trouble with NYGM Mod in the meditereanean right now. Its 1943 and i tried to attack a small convoy at night, 1 flower corvetter and 1 small merchant. I had to run all over the place to avoid the flower who kept sensing me around with radar, luckily i am faster than a flower corvette and ran around for about an hour until i got a shot in on that small merchant. With the merchant disabled i ran away for about an hour and came back to see the flower gone and i finished him off with my deck gun.

But the real doozie was when i fired a full salvo at a passagner liner in a medium convoy escorted by 3 destroyers. 2 of them went after me after i sent that passagner liner to the bottom when ALL 4 hit but i paid for it for about 2 hours of cat and mouse. While the depth charges didnt cause any damage, they shook me up a bit and scared me quite often. I dove deep and silent and they still found me, but finally gave up after about 2 hours. 1 escort stayed but he couldnt locate my sub at 230m. But my second attack on that convoy was foiled quickly at like 4000m when the v&w turned around an raced toward my sub. Then another 30 minutes followed until i got away and continued on my patrol. So far 1st patrol Feb 1943 20,000grt + sunk in med, that is an extremely good patrol and i doubt they will get better. Planes have been hounding me west of Israel like crazy and im still very far away from home.

I dont know how ppl can say "oo its so easy" its annoying, i thought the same way until i played later in the war, then i realized i was a big fish in a very small pond. With lots of sharks and eagles wandering around my small pond.

Wulfman id like to try your RND. Sounds a bit unrealistic tho, but i think im misunderstanding. Is it more difficult in the beginning of the war too when it shouldnt be to hard? I understand if its nearly impossible late in the war because, it was.. PM me or something

[Wulfmann]

My RND is more realistic in the sense of historical comparison. Early is still much easier but not the impossible to be killed idea that persist.
My RND is only modded with the convoys. the entire rest is GW. They actually redid the rest of the RND but did not update the IC in their RND and that is the only part I modded.
I added the more likely escorts and in more likely numbers. But, in real life 1944 convoys could have 20 escorts so I hardly went that far and even the best escorted convoys will not have more than 10 (all veteran)
The early convoys will have sloops (frigates in SH3 and trawlers (trawlers are 4 rated elite but have no asdic). In real life U-Boats were sunk by convoy escorts but in 1943 they became hounded and hunted. From 1943 on the convoys have mostly DEs which is real. (Hunt class are really DEs and unfortunately they are not in SH3 as they should be a main escort)
You can still easily attacked convoys early with this RND but only if you act correctly, stroll in and don't pay close attention and you will die in 1939.
That is more realistic.
I am reading Iron Coffins for the third time in 4 months so I can keep comparing my game experinces with Herr Werner.
In 1939 and 1940 U-Boats were lost at a rate on one every two weeks. In 1941 they lost 3 per month and in 1942 they lost 8 per month or almost 2 each week. It was much worse later but in SH3 there is not the real danger early that was possible when attacking a convoy. I believe I address this.
PM a email address if you want to try it but expect convoy attacks to be much more dangerous.
Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

Wulfmann, Iron Coffins isnt exactlly a historically accurate piece of reading material. Herr Werner exagerrated and even made up a lot of things. Look up the history of Ottokar Paulsen and the other Uboats he was apart of. Half of the attacks he describes did not happen. He never sunk a confirmed ship (or so history tells) etc. But i WOULD like to try out your campaign RND since it seems like u got convoy escorts right. Im annoyed when early in the war i see these uber DDs escorting convoys when the damn DDs havent even been comissioned yet! But nowadays i play NYGM and the Mediteranean so i dunno how ur RND will merge with NYGM since its from GW. You should try NYGM tho, its definately a bit harder and i have had some exciting moments trying to escape Destroyers

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by midshipsnake

SH3 = no challenge at all (so far)

When I played Silent Service II I had to dive deeper right after firing shots to earn more time to escape from escorts, but in SH3 I watch my shots score on peri and get away at leisure.

This is not cool. (I'm playing GW 1.0, everything on except manual
targeting)

Start a career in 43.

42 it starts getting a little tougher. by 43 it can get pretty tough sometimes.

Theres a reason why i dont start any career before 42. SH3 before '42 or '43, is nothing more then a interactive screensaver .

[andy_311]

From 43 onwards it's sheer hell just to get back home is a challenge. And 44 and 45 Just start praying.

[Keelbuster]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

I almost made it before getting hit hard by one can which dropped me to 66 and serious flooding but before they could line me up for the kill I got next to the DE and waited for about 3 hours while they eventually left. I moved off, sank my protector and headed for Bergen and repairs.
Wulfmann

Sounds intense! I hope you survive the war!

Kb

[Wulfmann]

Werner never made any claim of a confirmed kill as Kaleun of his own boat.
I am referring to how he makes it sound in the boat and the intensity of the interaction with the escorts. That is where I am trying to get a similar feel. We sink ships far easier than they did particularly in 1943-45 after May 43 when getting home alive with nothing sunk was a victory.

Still, there are still too many things that do not work right no matter what. The escorts lock on too easy and can't lose you in thermal layers or if you go deep while you desend the cans go off at what ever depth you are at when they can not always guess right but do. Without other boats in a pack the escorts can leave the convoy unprotected and all come for you and never let up. tec.
We know all that so this is trying to curve the difficulty to be challenging without being impossible and as it goes later force you to change tactics to survive (like launching from outside the convot with FATs and not expecting a bunch of kills every time you fire.

I did find something I want to change in my RND. I have made the warships like cruisers and escort carriers "escort true" instead of "false" which puts them outside the convoy. SH3 has an order to where these are placed and they are always in the left front of the convoy with no A/S vessel so become prime easy kills even late. I have sunk 2 cruisers and 2 escort carriers this career and that will not be repeated.
What would be a big ralism jump would be to make hunter killer groups that follow the convoys so the carrier is well protected and any cruiser as well. That would mean a new group on the same route and speed as the convoy but about 10 miles a stern matching its turns. In the war they kept one in between convoys so they could move where needed but ours would have to be prearranged to one to work.
Still I am playing conservative hoping to end the war with this career. Then I will redo it the convoys so there are no easy warship kills and try again.

Wulfmann

[Salvadoreno]

In Werners book he does mention he slammed a torp into a ship near ireland i believe. But yes escorts should be farther from the convoys, and convoys should be more spread out like in real life. This is all totally possible with a work with IC, but who knows. Sometimes i do see warships get pretty far away from convoys when they do their screenings which is awesome and gives me a chance to run in. I'd still like to try your RND layer tho wulfman, perhaps since you know the RND layer pretty well you could add something to IC by adding certain task forces following convoys like Artic convoys and wut not. But i have read a lot of accounts 1939-1941 of submarines getting away from escorts when they were detected, especially in bad weather going against the waves. That' d be nice too, but we cant have everything we want.

[McBeck]

Originally Posted by midshipsnake

SH3 = no challenge at all (so far)

When I played Silent Service II I had to dive deeper right after firing shots to earn more time to escape from escorts, but in SH3 I watch my shots score on peri and get away at leisure.

This is not cool. (I'm playing GW 1.0, everything on except manual
targeting)

Maybe it has something to do with the different capabilities of the English and Japaneese navy?

The german subs had it easy the first couple of years - thats a fact, so I dont think its unrealistic for you to be able to get easy kills.
Just wait till later in the war!

[Wulfmann]

The U-Boats did not have it easy early. They were well trained and used their Boats very effectively. That is why they succeeded, not because it was easy.

It should be easy for you if you act properly but you should be sunk when you do not.
Many U-Boats were sunk in the "easy" time but in later times it was a nightmare.

There are ceratinly things we can not do because of the games limitations. We are still seen too easily at night on the surface. We should be better able to hide in rough water from asdic at peri depth. we should be able to dive below the DCes. DCes should not always be going off at the depth we happen to be at even if we change while they are decending. The snorkle should not make us as visible as we are when we are surfaced (what is the point to snorkle?) There are many little things not right so we continue to labor and pick away as best we can to make a better closer to real experience.

Those that have my RND file know as I do. the sound of the asdic cuts you like a knife because with this RND it often means death and you know you must zig and not zag and must know where the excorts are, where they are going and when they drop their cans you know you must be somewhere else and you know you can not make any serious mistake or you will be starting over (for us 100% guys that play once dead, dead!)

But, after 10 days in a career where I am aggresive but careful and I do make that mistake I trully wonder if I have made it just a little too hard.
I have played with my super escort numbers for about a year, almost every day.
I have yet to finsih one career!

Wulfmann

[TheSamuraiJedi]

Nightmare situation, and yes, this happened to me.

August of 1944

Was attacked by 2 Fletcher DD's and 2 Black Swans.

I played hide and seek with them for an hour, before I got DC'ed by both Black Swans at the same time. No flooding, no nothing, just an instant "Man down on the deck!" "Hull Damaged!" and then the death screen.

My guess? 20 DC"s going off 20 feet from my hull turned my hull into an egg against the wall.

[Palladius]

DCes should not always be going off at the depth we happen to be at even if we change while they are decending

Was this the case in SH2? It's been a while, but I seem to recall this being one of my major tactics (if you can give such a flattering term to my meanderings!) i.e. As soon as I heard them coming I'd try to race the depth charges to my crush depth, so they'd detonate where I was, hopefully a long way above where I am. Seemed to work, but my memory is very faulty.[/quote]

[Salvadoreno]

so wulfman you going to let me use ur RND layer? I wanna try it out.