The cartoon row is back...!?!?

[Skybird]

If that cross-mosque-issue is no big deal for Islam - I wonder why Islam is demanding the cross to be put down. This is what Konovalov does not answer.

Konovalov also does not adress why the vast majority of muslim communities remain inactive about this thing, why they tolerate their speakers to make a big deal of it, and why they do not actively take care of the christian majority around them who do not understand why the guest that they accepted as a guest now tells them that they should retreat in their own living place and withdraw their own temples.

Why this silent acceptance of a row, Konovalov, if it is all that unimportant for Islam? The communitx in that city easily could have avoided to find themsleves in the centre of this negative interest, by calling back their speakers when they started to get loud, and actively demanding that the cross and thechurch stay were they are, and by saying loud they consider themselves guests in a foreign house, and thus regard it as their duty to behave and accept local rules, traditons, and cultures. You demand evidence from me that the Quran backs this special event. what did you hope to proove by that? I demand evidence from you that this event is not the latest example in a century-long tradition of Islam's silently or violently fighting-down of foreign religions and cultures. And don't come to me with that Quran. give us a factual evidence that what is taking place there is not in the name of Islam, as "defined" by Quran, Hadith, Muhammad and this man'S biography (I mean the historical biography, not the Sira). I hear Muslims say that it is in the name of Islam, and I hear no objection by a majority of Muslims. So why should I conclude by that behavior they show, that they are not silently agreeing with their speakers, at least that they do take care if their faith is hijacked by them? Solid and effective deeds that made a difference, please, no words.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

I was expecting you to assist me, show some solidarity towards my cut and paste infidel hack job, clear my mind and remember me why none of that, or even better cut and pasted jobs could not convince a bunch of folks to keep a simple cross down.

You could have fooled me. Forgive me if you come across just a touch sarcastic here.

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

I wonder why it is illegal, in Saudi Arabia for instance, to raise a Church, a Cross and spread Bibles. Certainly, there's nothing offensive in a Cross itself, the problem must be something else, hmm, I wonder what that could be.

You will find no argument from me on Saudi Arabias policy. I am as yet to find an adequate explanation on this as I am to the Taliban style rationale that music should be banned when a guy sings out the adhan (call to prayer).

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

But, you are probably too busy already working towards your Imman-man-ship and reverting brainwashed Muslim Youth to the true Islam to bother talking to an infidel about Islam. I understand, it is repulsive to see the Koran cut and pasted by my dirty hands. Sorry, next time I'll find myself a Muslim mediator, and speak only what you want to hear, from my proper condition of a future dhimmi, I submit, this post, that is.

Whatever Bobafett. Whatever.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Skybird

If that cross-mosque-issue is no big deal for Islam - I wonder why Islam is demanding the cross to be put down. This is what Konovalov does not answer.

In so many of your posts and your writings you say, I'm paraphrasing here, "Islam, as I define it is the Koran, Hadiths and itself thru history." Based off your definition and in my view it isn't Islam demanding the cross be put down. I simply know of nothing in the Qu'ran or Sunnah which supports this whole stupid argument. It is a group of people supposedly demanding the cross be put down. I don't know these people. I don't know this community. Instead of answering my simple couple of questions you try to change the topic. I asked these simple questions and requested theological evidence that supports your assertion and you can't offer any so instead you go off on one of your long winded tangents.

[joea]

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by joea

Just do what I do and take a couple of Nurofen or whatever is your preferred painkiller of choice.

[Skybird]

You avoid the questions, Konovalov. See, I can play that game as good as you do. So will you please stop avoiding the question. Why should we conclude that if the vast majority of Muslims does not protest against what is said and done in their explicit name nevertheless is not in the name of Islam? First you do not like that I tell you you are no Muslim. Now maybe you want to tell me that I am guilty of taking Muslims as Muslims if they claim to be Muslims? So why is a motive that is is given in the name of Islam not Islam, if the community of Islam has no problem with accepting it to be a given motive of Islam? I could vary the question in many ways, but it remains the same question in principle. And you still do not answer. If that cross-mosque-issue is no big deal for Islam - I wonder why Islam is demanding the cross to be put down.
Why does the vast majority of muslim communities remain inactive about this thing, why do they tolerate their speakers to make a big deal of it, and why don't they take care of the christian majority around them who does not understand why the guest that they accepted as a guest now tells them that they should retreat in their own living place and withdraw their own temples.
I could start ripple-fire Koran-quotes myself, on it'S demand that the infidels must be fought and made surrender by all violance needed, I have it on HD or orinted out on paper, and it all has been collected by me, it is no list copied from the internet, but what would it be good for? You will say that you understand the same Quran differently, and probably deal with me like with TteFAboB after he posted some quotes.

As I said the number or red marked quotes in my book-version of the Quran by far outnumbers those with green markings. And that although that translation is sad to be an extremely cleaned and tame one. Many violent passages in other translations are not poresent in it, to make Islam more acceptable for us poor Westerners.

Well, and something else: what Is Islam - if not understood on the basis of Quran (that includes Sharia as a "conditioning" tool to help man to stay focussed exclusively on it's rules), the Hadith, and the life of Muhammad that is the example Islamic social life and Ummah is oriented at until today...? How can you define Islam not on the basis if this? It IS the most elemental, essential basis of Islam. If you leave it, you do not talk of Islam anylonger. I never have red any competent author who did not line this out. Take away Quran, and Mhammad, and Hadith, and medina-model - and you have anything but not Islam left. Some thing on your mind, some fantasized self-made system of thoughts and images inside your head, maybe even making sense, and leading you in your life - but not islam as it had been sown out bei Muhammad, and lived through history. so another question of mine: are we talking about the real, the true, the historical Islam, or are we taliikgn about a fantasy of yours (which must not necessarily be a bad thing, but you should rename it accordingly, then)? You may have noted that I made a sharp difference between chruch and Christian message, between Jesus teachiungs and the old parts of the bible. But where could you step away from Muhammad? How could you avoid the highly articifical and often changed form of the Quran, and for what alternative understanding? Even sufism is heavily deopendant on it.

I know a thing or two on Islam, but I do not know what the heck you are talking about. It is not the "Islam" that is meant when saying "Islam". Which is a compliment, really.

[Konovalov]

The 7th post of this thead I asked those two simple questions. Your post following this, the 8th, gave something approaching of an answer to the first and avoided the second on the church-mosque issue and then proceeded to ripple off a series of questions back at me.

We had this debate 12 months ago where I provided dozens of links listing condemnation of varied barbourous acts. As I said I cannot comment on this community in the Netherlands making such a ridiculous request. I don't know these people. Would you like me to fly over there now and confront them? I will end with a bit of local history from where I live here in the UK. When my extended family emigrated here from Kashmir back in the late 50's, the local Church was offerred to the new Muslim community as a place of worship until years later when a Mosque was built. The Muslim community here had no problem with being in a church, had no problem seeing Christian symbols such as crosses, and had no problem praying in a Christian church.

[Ducimus]

In my minds eye, i picture a world where Islam was never thought up or invented. Such a lovely world it could have been. Such a Pity.

Im a little tired of hearing about Islam, and Muslims. Everythign i hear and see only reiforces a very negative view that has been years in the making.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

I don't know these people. Would you like me to fly over there now and confront them?

I never asked that. But you went exactly to the point.

I could pick up a "theology of freedom" Bible (what a disgrace to all that is decent) and claim all Bishops and Priests should work to implement socialist economical reforms or revolutions, and claim that Jesus was a socialist and that his message was of economical importance.

Actually, I don't have to, it's already being done, the Bible emptied of all spirituality, reduced to a materialistic garbage, Marxism avant la letre, being sold and used out there with nothing but bad intentions.

So, your point, is mine.

You cannot tell what is the motivation behind these people. Just like you can claim it's definitely not from the same Islamic source you hold dear, you can't tell they aren't being, what was the euphemism again? unfairly invoking the name of Islam, or whatever. What if they are? What if they are doing a poor cut and paste hack job? That was the point, wasn't it? And there we have it, no embassy-burning protests against this band of rogue Muslims who are not representing the true nature of Islam, which is an offense to the Prophet too isn't it? Blasphemy, isn't it?

I have no illusions that a Muslim can't touch, kiss and even carry a cross on his back, and I ask nothing of you, first because that would be silly, who are you to face the historical figure of Islam alone anyway? And also because you leave nothing to be desired and should serve as an example to the more, primitive, tribalistic, Muslims. The problem starts when Mr. Imman starts hacking what there is of peacefull in Islam, and inciting a gang to violence and hatred, and just like the Catholic Church is reluctant to ultimately expell once and for all, and ban, and burn, and crucify all heretics from within, what action can another Muslim take when his heretics are an organized violent gang?

Organize aswell and defend, if not a Church against a mob, the right principles to be upheld and maintained.

Of course, depending on how you look at it, and you personally must be tired of it, one would argue who is the proper Muslim and who is the heretic, but that is to be decided between the two factions. I suppose the final victor will be considered the true Muslim.

[Skybird]

The questions were so simple, and still no answer why Muslims in that place do not engage in effective action to prevent what is going on IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. Who is interested in some minor local demonstration (that does not compare innsize to the uproar cuased by the Danish cartoons anyway) in other countires about an event in Belgium? O asked why the people there do not do anything. Why they do not get demkanded by global Ummah to do something. Ummah is all one great happy family, isn't it

I tell you a simple explanation, Konovalov: your perception of what Islam is, is too reasonable, too Westernized. You use tools that are too advanced for a too primitive problem. 21st century meets medieval. Both does not match, both are not on the same level. A categorial error of first order, Kant maybe would call it (I always mess up his categorial errors...). That's why you don't get beyond the discrepancy between what you see Islam like, and what Islam sees itself like, and you even do not realize that discrepancy, thus labelling your view of Islam the self-understanding of Islam in general. And this is why you cannot answer that simple question. You maybe are beyond Islam - and even do not realize it, like a child that has learned to swim, but does not know, and thus does not dare to let go the grip in the wall of the swimming pool.

You are too good for Islam That's how I think about you. But that way you nevertheless can do damage without even realizing it, and help spreading a thing that is bad, and do so with only the best intentions.

I leave here, there is nothing more to say. There is a possebility that in the future some events will influence you in that way that you suddenly realize all this, and then this confusion maybe will no longer bind you. But neither can nor will I help in that. It's your life, not mine.

No hard feelings, good luck!

Skybird

[Ducimus]

With that, im going to leave this alone. I have said entirely too much as it is already.