All seeing Helos

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

Just never heard that it is a dead item.

As far as what you get with your mod, I love it. I like how you have taking a lot of the 'arcadish' things out and made it more.. well.. tedious. That is what ASW warfare is like. Myself and TopTorp served on a boat together. I have seen the fatigue level that can be attained when trying to do our jobs. The CONSTANT mental 'What if's"

Do I WANT that in DW at RL levels???? No. But I like to have some of it in there so that there is a taste of what we did.

Nice to know I'm not alone, even though I've never served. Cheers!

[drEaPer]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Well one thing can't be denied... my informant is certainly better than the one SCS is using. :rotfl:

Remember, a Collins class sub is as loud as a Han!

Akula sphere sonar is just as sensitive as a SW!

The 688i doesn't have a Tb-23!

The Miasnikovs Papers and the calculations based off of them that jsteed, finiteless, and Amizaur did are totally made up!

What you guys don't realize is that this stuff is NOT pulled from thin air. We have data, and its good data, certainly much better than whatever crap Sonalysts contracted out for.

I've never been on an Akula, but this work was done before me. In fact, this work had been done for DWX, before it was permanently cancelled. If thomas were here, would you still be saying "oh the mod data... its all just made up!".

What a bunch of crap... good thing I really don't care. The mod will continue to improve, even if the ignorance of certain parts of the community does not.

One quick question, has anyone played a modded game where there was a cheater? :hmm:

I already acknowledged that these kinds of changes are cool. But you cannot change things where you just have a vague idea about the real systems (russian sonars). Thats guessing. You always talk about having good informants, you always say "This is like that, and this is a fact" but you never actually works scientifically by giving us sources, where this information comes from. If you proceed like that in a university / diploma thesis, you wont succeed. Just pretending that somehting is like you want it to be doesnt make it like that. Fx the 688 has a tb23, ok, but pointing this out just means you didnt really read what I said but you read what you wanna see in my post. I said that thoses changes are exactly what I like, cause they are revisable. But messing around with sensiveties without documenting your sources is no way to work scientifically. And if you pretend to make a "realism" mod, you need to work scientifally so your work is verfifyable.
Also, by the way you react, you show totally that its not just about the work, but that it gets personally as soon as someone os criticising your work... psychologically speaking this coulde make one wonder if this is not just all about making it more realistic but also something about being "right and wrong" ... and unless you dcoument your sources and the actual changes (and their values) changing sensiveties of sonars is just a guess... (at least if feels like a guess to the user). If you say its not pulled out of the air, ok, document your sources and why you think these are better and its cool.

cheers!

[LuftWolf]

Personal maybe... but you and others are missing the point and that's why I get frustated.

I'm not getting paid, this is my hobby, we do our best to only make improvements that seem reasonable to us and others. Dangerous Waters is a better game and more fun with LWAMI than without, in my opinion and the opinion of people whose ideas have been very informative for me in the past.

That's really the only point.

Everything else is just superstition.

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

If you say its not pulled out of the air, ok, document your sources and why you think these are better and its cool.

How about this... find sources that prove that I'm wrong about something, and I'll be happy to change anything in the Mod, so long as it doesn't break gameplay.

This is the way we have always worked. http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...er=asc&start=0

(I think what frustrates me most about these kinds of discussions is that people don't realize the stock database values are often arbitrary and sometimes senseless... perhaps it takes some familiarity with the database to realize this clearly)

Cheers,
David

[drEaPer]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Personal maybe... but you and others are missing the point and that's why I get frustated.

I'm not getting paid, this is my hobby, we do our best to only make improvements that seem reasonable to us and others. Dangerous Waters is a better game and more fun with LWAMI than without, in my opinion and the opinion of people whose ideas have been very informative for me in the past.

That's really the only point.

Everything else is just superstition.

Cheers,
David

I doubt this attitude would would help one well if he has to prove his thesis to dr. or prof.
Prof: Why you think your simulation is simulating real world conditions more realistic than the other.
You: Because they are more reasonable.
Come on....
You say Im missing your point without really reacing to my point at all... Guess thats called ignorant? Dont know.
Put all your reason for the changes in the readme or in a differrnt file and its cool.
Additonally, you say with LWAMI its more fun, but I know quite some ppl who dont play LWAMI because of exactly that reason: Some think its less fun. The MP experience changes alot. It changes in a big way. But they like the other changes about the military hardware, changes which dont change the detection ranges but change the equipment. Unfortunately you cannot get those fixes for more realistic equipment without also getting a whole shift in the detection ranges.

You say Im missing the point, what point?
I never claiemd that you get paid for this, I never defamed your work. I never dishonered that you put many hours in it. You just interpret what I say. Read more carefully.
So what point am I missing, please tell me. You are totally evading what I said and saying Im missing the point *pah*.
This post is exaclty what I ciriticiseed: Working by "opinion", what _you_ think is _reasonable_. Opinions and thinking that somehting
is reasonable has nothing to do with realism. Working scientifally has to do with realism.


cheers!


PS: Dont get me wrong, I still respect your work, as I respect every honest effort. I just dont think honest effort equals truth.

[LuftWolf]

I think the ultimate point is that I don't have anything at all to lose by not doing anything you want. :P

Let's be real.

Our time working on DW stuff is limited... we try to have the stuff in the mod that is published be done, meaning more correct that what was there and at least as bug-free, so we don't have to go back to it unless we want to make specific improvements. So we rely on users in a lot of cases to check us (like any developer) in cases where we have made oversites.

Like I said, I would be very happy if you or anyone else could point to specific aspects of the Mod they think are wrong and give me some sources that we can work with to make the mod a better reflection of reality, within gameplay limits of course.

[Deathblow]

I would like to point out to drEaPer that this is not a thesis its a game...

and he's got a point... if the burden was put on yourself to *prove* that the mod values are in fact wrong... then the problem would be turned around and the arguments now ensued on your own data...

... pretty much circular logic.

[Orm]

I love so much DW as I play it as a stock or mod. I really don’t care which one, as I have say previously, I get killed and I win with both versions. LwAmi is a great mod (and thanks for this work you made for us) for a stock sim that has many flows. And no Molon, you are not the only one to defend this mod as I do it also.

BUT, drEaper has his point also. With an academic background, we always learn at the University that, no matter what paper, essay or theory (genius, good or bad), we have to be critic before making our mind. And that’s the problem with you LuftWolf (and others) as we cannot critic you in a good matter without be named as ignorant, stupid, cheaters, and so on …

As a member of a virtual fleet, I remember when LwAmi was introduced to us. And my first question was, I think legitimate, what are the credentials of the makers of this mod. Everybody was telling that is realism but how can I be sure that it is true. You are talking of informants. What is the meaning of that? And I can understand the question about your knowledge’s of physics. Are you using specialists to get all the information you need?

You see a lot of open questions that were never answer, even to drEaper when he was asking you in good matter.

But don’t d forget that I love your mod before flaming me.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by drEaPer

I already acknowledged that these kinds of changes are cool. But you cannot change things where you just have a vague idea about the real systems (russian sonars).

And how do you know the Sonalysts guys really know about the systems?

Anyway, at the present LWAMI setting, generally the Russian Nrd is about 1/3rd (+2, which equates to rough 4dB less sensitive) as sensitive as the American. This is actually in accordance to, for example, here.

It is not hard to understand why, too, at least for the bow sonar. Ignoring the tech gap, a spherical sonar simply allows for more reception area, at least twice as much (half the bow versus the whole bow). The Russians would have to come up with some real magic to compensate for something like that.

If you ask the most dubious part about all this, it is the low washout limits in Russian systems. But that one wasn't LW's fault. It is Sonalyst. I'd be curious to hear what sources or even what reasoning they used when they decided this.

If you proceed like that in a university / diploma thesis, you wont succeed.

1) This is not a thesis and you are not his prof.
2) When you say he has no right to change a value, you are de facto defending the original value.
3) Something that's "merely" reasonable is still far more likely to be close to correct than something pulled out of your foot.

[Molon Labe]

It's not like SCS proved the values it used. As the Collins example shows, a lot of the stock DB is pure crap.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Orm

And that’s the problem with you LuftWolf (and others) as we cannot critic you in a good matter without be named as ignorant, stupid, cheaters, and so on …

I'm genuinely sorry that this is your view of me.

I understand why you might feel this way.

However please understand that 95% of my time on this forum is spent: 1) conversing with players about the details of the Mod and ways to improve it 2) conversing with players and Sonalysts about issues related to DW in general and the beta testing process 3) helping new players understand the intricacies of DW.

The other 5% of my time here is spend being a total ass.

And that's just me.

Cheers,
David

[Deathblow]

Don't apologize LW. All those arguments against accepting the mod values can be turned right around against accepting the stock values... Someone with a reasonable disagreement against the mod database can easily post a "why they disagree with LW&A values" as well... This whole argument is ... well... stupid.

Heck thats what the whole 33+ pages of the LW&A thread on the mod database has been... discussing the mod... with ample opprotunity for those with disagreement to contribute to the discussion as to why.

[drEaPer]

Originally Posted by Deathblow

I would like to point out to drEaPer that this is not a thesis its a game...

I would like to point out to deathblow that LW is the one claiming to implement realism. So after all, there is no realism at all, since this is a game and this discussion is in fact pointless.


Just because 100.00o ppl are of the opinion, it stil doesnt mean they are right, even if just one person opposed them. LW claims something he cant prove, that all I point out. SCS never claimed something like that.

People really need to start reading what a poster wrote, and dont put their own words between it. Noone said SCS values are better. They just are different. Who am I to judge which values are better?
I have no physics degree nor am I a sub sailor nor did I study the sonar sensors.


Aaaaanyway... What about the helo issue?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by drEaPer

I would like to point out to deathblow that LW is the one claiming to implement realism. So after all, there is no realism at all, since this is a game and this discussion is in fact pointless.

It is not hard to be more realistic than Sonalyst's database... Once you've spent 10 minutes looking around into it, you come to the conclusion they must have blown their time on everything else and threw it together 5 minutes before the game is due to sell... with their eyes closed, especially in the more rarely accessed "backyard" sections of the database.

Just because 100.00o ppl are of the opinion, it stil doesnt mean they are right, even if just one person opposed them. LW claims something he cant prove, that all I point out. SCS never claimed something like that.

Sonalysts did claim it is a professional agency.

People really need to start reading what a poster wrote, and dont put their own words between it. Noone said SCS values are better. They just are different. Who am I to judge which values are better?
I have no physics degree nor am I a sub sailor nor did I study the sonar sensors.

You have a brain and basic knowledge, do you? You can understand when you have only half the reception area on a sensor and you country is generally behind in electronics, it is pretty hard to get the same sensitivity.

During the production of LWAMI, many people particpated in SubSim, some that are sub sailors. Probably the most valuable part from the vets is to give us a clue about detection ranges. AFAIK, the ratio between the average ship's SL and sensor Nrd is generated from aggregating their testimony with the formulas.

Aaaaanyway... What about the helo issue?

Hasn't it been already explained to you that it was probably caused because Sonalysts made a clearly faulty database (even in LWAMI 3.02, you can still see their arbitrariness in the areas that LW didn't take a scythe to already - you might as well see them fast because I understand that LW plans to wipe them out in Version 4).

[moose1am]

Please forgive me but what is DWX. I am still new to this forum and don't know all these abbreviations.

One thing I would like to see though is for Jamie to announce that there was a 1.04 patch to fix the bugs that were not fixed by patch 1.03.

There still seems to be some issues with this game. Voice command not working when the sonar is on the broadband is one that I think should be fixed. I purchased this game because it's one of the very few games out there that used Voice Commands without having to buy Game Commander. This is really cool technology and should be made to work in Dangerous Waters.

I love the concept of having three different platforms in this game. Air, Surface and Subsurface.

I would love to see the game developers actually expand on this concept and make this game truely multiplayer and massive.

The subsurface community is smaller than most other online games that I have played in the past. By including more airplanes in DW game the number of subscribers would have the potential to increase.

That's my 2 cents from someone who is new to this game.

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

When did this happen? I played Sub command a LOT and loved SCX IMMENSLY and was looking forward to a DWX.