Question of the day. Surprise torpedo evasion. - Page 2

SeaQueen · 04-23-06, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wim Libaers

In some situations, it may also be useful to check if the torpedo was fired by a friendly or a hostile platform.

Friends? What friends? Why are they in MY op area?

Kapitan · 04-23-06, 11:23 AM

Friendly Nutrel or enamy i dont care i fire if threated, i set a 20 miles cicle around my boat thats the threash hold any thing even a whale comes to close il either use evasive monovers or sink it.

In submarine warfare there is no such thing as friendlys everyone is you enamy.

Sgian Dubh · 04-23-06, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonar732

The only problem with launch transients is if you're in SP you're hosed because the chance of you looking at BB the exact moment that it is launched is slim. However, if in MP and assigned the BB and your only job is to watch for transients the chances get better. If I remember right, either Fish or Xabb has posted screenies of what it looks like. Trust me, the transient warning is high on everyone's wish.

I think I remember seeing these a long time ago. Anyone know if these images are still available?

Kapitan · 04-23-06, 12:05 PM

I have seen some screen shots of the broad band sonar picking up outer doors opening or something like that cant remember exactly, but it was taken from an american submarine, its very difficault to see any signs of opening outer doors or flooding in a russian submarine very hard.

Molon Labe · 04-23-06, 01:53 PM

SQ, sounds like you need to find some opponents that take the game seriously and aren't just taking a break from Doom.

MaHuJa · 04-23-06, 03:44 PM

As a general rule, I do the tma to get a reasonable solution before I fire. At some point he's gonna begin maneuvering evasively, and by then, all bets are off as far as TMA and me are concerned. Then, it's guidance and bearing differences all the way.

My answer to the original post, is more or less documented in the ffg guide I wrote; generally speaking, the first thing I do on getting the TIW warning is to maneuver so as to invalidate the solution it was fired on (presuming it was fired on me, etc etc) then to determine the type and direction of the torpedo. Location is also important, but not to ownship survival.

Bubblehead Nuke · 04-23-06, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan

its very difficault to see any signs of opening outer doors or flooding in a russian submarine very hard.

Ok, I have to ask.

Why is this so? What do they do so different?

Kazuaki Shimazaki II · 04-23-06, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan

its very difficault to see any signs of opening outer doors or flooding in a russian submarine very hard.

Ok, I have to ask.

Why is this so? What do they do so different?

Display. A transient shows up in a waterfall because it records the time factor, though signal strength representation is only by glow strength and thus more approximate (doesn't matter if you have a SW style SNR reader though).

The Akula uses an instantaneous display. The transient flashes by and is gone.

It also produces negative effects on effective broadband sensitivity because the waterfall can "accumulate" the signal better.

Bubblehead Nuke · 04-23-06, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Display. A transient shows up in a waterfall because it records the time factor, though signal strength representation is only by glow strength and thus more approximate (doesn't matter if you have a SW style SNR reader though).

I must be getting old, I mistook his question that we could not detect it. Yes, the waterfalls will miss such a short lived transient.

Sgian Dubh · 04-23-06, 09:02 PM

Which is why I have always wondered why Russian subs in the game (and in real life?) don't have a waterfall display for the history of contacts. For SONAR signal analysis it seems like such a "must have".

SeaQueen · 04-23-06, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

SQ, sounds like you need to find some opponents that take the game seriously and aren't just taking a break from Doom.

Hey, if it's 3am and I'm bored... I take what I can get. I think a lot of this is also driven by the fact that the time and distance scales on which most MP games are played are totally contrived.

Bellman · 04-23-06, 11:35 PM

MLs SQ 'Doom' torpedo is on target regretably. Even Homer sleeps ?

I join the 'Ides' as I hope SQs 'shotgun' tactics statements will be taken with a large pinch of salt !

ML is better 'briefed' to mount the case for the prosecution

Kazuaki Shimazaki II · 04-24-06, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgian Dubh

Which is why I have always wondered why Russian subs in the game (and in real life?) don't have a waterfall display for the history of contacts. For SONAR signal analysis it seems like such a "must have".

The even funnier thing is that if you buy the game's story, the DEMON has a perfectly good waterfall - so much for saying they can't make one or don't get the concept.

SeaQueen · 04-24-06, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellman

MLs SQ 'Doom' torpedo is on target regretably. Even Homer sleeps ?

I join the 'Ides' as I hope SQs 'shotgun' tactics statements will be taken with a large pinch of salt !

ML is better 'briefed' to mount the case for the prosecution

No... if you are in most of the MP games, the worst thing in the world you can do is sit there trying to develop a solution while 4 ding dongs have already shot torpedoes that are so ill aimed as to hit ANYTHING at all. Those ill-aimed torpedoes are just as dangerous as well aimed ones if you don't treat them as if they were well aimed. It's much better to just let loose with the maximum salvo size as soon as you see a line of bearing (a TIW is the same thing). On average you'll do better. It doesn't even really matter who you hit, just as long as it's SOMEONE. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that more torpedoes = more dead opponents.

From it's conception, the whole scenario is about countermeasures, evasion, and weaponry. There's no thinking to it at all. You don't have time to think. Most of these kiddies won't PLAY a scenario where there's too much time they have to spend searching. The scenarios they favor are the ones where everyone is almost on the verge being detected by everyone else anyway. The results at that point depend entirely on firepower and countermeasures effectiveness. A single ping before shooting would actually give you the instamatic range you need to make a torpedo shot a tiny bit more effective than his, thus giving you another slight edge in a situation whose results are essentially random.

In fact, it's probably better to just go active immediately after being shot at too. Since by most people's standards in MP, a line of bearing is all that's necessary to shoot, it's best to just assume you've been detected immediately after the first torpedo is fired.

Sgian Dubh · 04-24-06, 09:26 AM

And that's why in any MP game of this kind (where patience is required or where there is a part of the community that enjoys the execution of the game as much or more than the final last few minutes if frantic explosions) needs to have a way to penalize people for using, for instance, the "shotgun torpedo approach".

Each weapon should cost you points. So even if you get a "kill", then you should still be able to lose on a points basis. Of course, even this still doesn't solve the problem because the people that were looking forward to a nice game of "sneak about" still have to deal with weapons in the water, one or more losses and a "rogue" element.

The bottom line is that a way needs to be found to remove the reward for such tactics (and I think it should be toggle-able because there are people who enjoy playing a faster, FPS-type game).

04-23-06, 11:23 AM	#17
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Friendly Nutrel or enamy i dont care i fire if threated, i set a 20 miles cicle around my boat thats the threash hold any thing even a whale comes to close il either use evasive monovers or sink it. In submarine warfare there is no such thing as friendlys everyone is you enamy. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

04-23-06, 12:05 PM	#19
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,130 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	I have seen some screen shots of the broad band sonar picking up outer doors opening or something like that cant remember exactly, but it was taken from an american submarine, its very difficault to see any signs of opening outer doors or flooding in a russian submarine very hard. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

04-23-06, 01:53 PM	#20
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	SQ, sounds like you need to find some opponents that take the game seriously and aren't just taking a break from Doom. __________________

04-23-06, 03:44 PM	#21
MaHuJa Sonar Guy Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 59.96156N 11.02255E Posts: 385 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	As a general rule, I do the tma to get a reasonable solution before I fire. At some point he's gonna begin maneuvering evasively, and by then, all bets are off as far as TMA and me are concerned. Then, it's guidance and bearing differences all the way. My answer to the original post, is more or less documented in the ffg guide I wrote; generally speaking, the first thing I do on getting the TIW warning is to maneuver so as to invalidate the solution it was fired on (presuming it was fired on me, etc etc) then to determine the type and direction of the torpedo. Location is also important, but not to ownship survival. __________________ Teaching DW newbies how to climb the food chain.

04-23-06, 11:35 PM	#27
Bellman Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,945 Downloads: 220 Uploads: 0	MLs SQ 'Doom' torpedo is on target regretably. Even Homer sleeps ? I join the 'Ides' as I hope SQs 'shotgun' tactics statements will be taken with a large pinch of salt ! ML is better 'briefed' to mount the case for the prosecution __________________ Liberty, Equality, Fraternity

04-23-06, 09:02 PM	#25
Sgian Dubh Officer Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 245 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Which is why I have always wondered why Russian subs in the game (and in real life?) don't have a waterfall display for the history of contacts. For SONAR signal analysis it seems like such a "must have".

04-24-06, 09:26 AM	#30
Sgian Dubh Officer Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 245 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	And that's why in any MP game of this kind (where patience is required or where there is a part of the community that enjoys the execution of the game as much or more than the final last few minutes if frantic explosions) needs to have a way to penalize people for using, for instance, the "shotgun torpedo approach". Each weapon should cost you points. So even if you get a "kill", then you should still be able to lose on a points basis. Of course, even this still doesn't solve the problem because the people that were looking forward to a nice game of "sneak about" still have to deal with weapons in the water, one or more losses and a "rogue" element. The bottom line is that a way needs to be found to remove the reward for such tactics (and I think it should be toggle-able because there are people who enjoy playing a faster, FPS-type game).