German school capitulates to ethnic violance

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Konovalov

No Muslims full stop I would say, right Sky?

No Muslims be they black, white, brown. No Muslims be they from the Middle East, the USA, Australia, Africa or wherever. No Muslims be they highly skilled workers, doctors, dentists, chemists. But what would you do with those German citizens who are Muslim Sky? What would you like your government to do? How would you like this problem dealt with? You must have some ideas surely.

Would I be able to travel to your country for a holiday? Should there be a law that a persons religion must be stated on their passport/identification papers? Or should this be taken further with some form of visual ID/marking on ones person that indicates them being Muslim? Could I take up employment in your country on a work permit visa with my parent company in Germany?

Inside europe, and the West - Europe/West (culture, religion, traditions, habits, values, laws) goes first. You know I see Islam as an aggressive ideology aiming at expansion, no matter how. My Muslim neighbour next door may be a kind and nice guy - but the sheer fact that he is here helps islam to spread in europe. I define Islam on the basis of Quran, Hadith, the example set by Muhammad's life. according to that, you, Konovalov, does not qualify in my eyes to be a full Muslim - which is absolutely no offending, from my perspective. I expect that if we would meet, your wife would not be hesitent to shake hands with me, and would not wore a veil or burka. You probably do not do a lot of things that according to Quran and sharia you would be obligated to do - if you were a real Muslim in Muhammd's understanding. I expect you do not argue that a Christian cross at a construction place for a mosque should be removed. You certainly do not demand that Europe has to give up oarts of itslef to let Islam in. Do you?

But the aggressiveness of Islam in Europe and it's attempt to tackle traditional cultural barriers hindering it, and bring down laws and structures that are typical for our societies, but are not to it's liking, is increasing. Not one week in Germany were not a new case at court has been reported on wheere some muslim man or women tried to overcome such "barriers" because they are not in correspondence with their Islamic view from their religious perpective. People have started to relaize that constitutions that are based on the principle of separation between poltiics and religion are almost defenseless against an intolerant ideology that is exactly the opposite - that is basing on the unity of politics and religion.

Truth is, Konovalov, the sheer existence of so many Muslims in our societies pushes Islam forward, no matter if these people are nice and kind or not. this is not the criterion. The ideology that is helped to spread by that is the criterion. You are right, i do not care if Muslims are of this or that skin colour. I demand them to fully submit to our local cultural dominance, and where there is conflict between their values and ours, they have to step back - or leave the country, to live a Muslim life in a musolim country. At no cost I want to live in an increasingly Muslim society, it is to rigid, to backward, too primitve for me. Not the smallest sympathy from me. While crime rate and unemployment is not exclusively a Muslim problem in Germany, it nevertheless is an important variable linked to that. It illustrates a sociological and psychological reality that is different, but hard fact, than what well-wishing politicians and humansits want it to be. It simply says: people prefer to stick to people like themselves, they do not want to have too many foreigners in their middle. and that is true not only for Europeans, but for all other socieities around the globe as well. That is a preference that is encoded in our nature, I assume. One could mix it up with racism, but it is not. It simply says that there are differences between people, and their mentalities. The differences between the Orient'S and Europe's history in the last thousand years, and the differences between Islam and chrsitian tradition does not exactly help to delete these differences between people.

Would I welcome you in Germany? Yes, but only as long as you do not propagate in any means the spreading of Islam. concenring the many immigrants we already have: there are those who tried to adopt to local habits and customs, and fully merge into our society. They are welcomed to stay. But those who are here since 10, 20, 30 years, but still haven't leanred our local language, denying their hosting nation even the smallest ammount of respect by that, should leave, yes. I insist on any immigrant wanting to live in Grmany, that he must have that truly and deeply wish to become a german, not only by passport, but by ethical and value-related convictions, understanding of legal principles in Western laws, ways of social interaction and behavior. I also reserve the right to ask immigrants what they have to offer in return that is of value for us, in exchange for us accepting them in our middle. I do not want a growing personell basis to strengthen increasing subcultures in Germany that areerdoing our culture and constitutional order.

There is a saying, it goes somehow like this. If oyu let in a single muslim, due to the unique structure and selfunderstanding of Islam you have let in all the world's Islam as well, which this single person represents. I see some truth in that. Islam is no guest willing to be one guest amongst others. He wants to become the ruler of the house. That's why I have become more and more less reluctant to kick his ass out.

It comes down to this, Konovalov. When a foreigner is in our place, he plays according to our rules and habits and step back whenever these are in conflict with his. Else he leaves voluntarily, or we reserve the right to kick him out in an act of self-defense.

You may agree or not, Konovalov, but this does not change the fact that on the presence of so many foreigners in general and muslims in special creates sociological conflicts on the ground that are a reality - no matter if you like that or not. And they turn into more and more violant potentials. It's simply does not work like multi-kulti-fans would like to have it in their imagination.

What I want my government to do? change immigration rules. Immigrants should proove why they are of value for german society, they must comply with the local resident'S justified demand that they fully accept their rules and culture and do not wish to raise their own subculture, and they must stop pressing for the spreading of Islam in special, they also have to explain in writing why they do wish to become german by heart and mind. In general, this is not much different than what you need to do if you wish to become and american for example. americas rules in this regard are much tighter than German ones, currently. Also, learning german language is a MUST. If it is not fulfilled after a reasonable ammount of time, they have to leave again.

You must not claim your rleigion in your passport. If you do no active missionizing and stop building more and more mosques and "culturee centres" and would stop to demand from Germans to adopt for example public laws or details concerning public schools accoriding to Islamic interests, that would be sufficient.

Working visa: yes, if you have to offer us a skill that we are in ned of. If you just add a widespread job offer to the thosuands of such offers that are already on the market and a burden to the high unemployment, then you would not get such a visa from me. which again is the way how several Western countries already handle it.

Would you like me and other coming to australia and strating to tell you that you Australians have to start changing things and making it accropding to how we live in Germany? If I go there, I am a guest, and so I behave like a guest, that is a simple matter of rles of politeness. Islam in Germany and other european countries more and more often starts to behave as if it is an equal to it's host, or even a master. and you wonder why people like me turn stubborn?

[Pole]

Originally Posted by Skybird

But the Muslim culture, Balkan or not, certainly is no part of Europe.

You are wrong. Pre-1492 Muslim-to-the-bone Spain was in full bloom. Treaties of medicine, chemistry, philosophy, astronomy, works of literature and arts were of highest standards and stand up to today's scrutiny. Plenty of that findings contributed massively to the progress of late maedieval Europe. Discarding en masse achievements of Muslim culture and its achievements is fundamentally wrong. We must observe the "slight" difference between Muslim culture in general and people, who often, willingly or not turn it into its nightmarish caricature.

Pole

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Pole

You are wrong. Pre-1492 Muslim-to-the-bone Spain was in full bloom. Treaties of medicine, chemistry, philosophy, astronomy, works of literature and arts were of highest standards and stand up to today's scrutiny. Plenty of that findings contributed massively to the progress of late maedieval Europe. Discarding en masse achievements of Muslim culture and its achievements is fundamentally wrong. We must observe the "slight" difference between Muslim culture in general and people, who often, willingly or not turn it into its nightmarish caricature.

Pole

Right, and Christians en jews live there as dimmish. Not to talk about atheists.

[Pole]

Originally Posted by xrvjorn

put the offenders behind bars (and keep them there!) because of the crimes they commit, not because of their colour or creed

Precisely. Outlaws are outlaws regardless of race, progeny, faith, you name it. I don't care if they arrest Bosnian Muslim, Polish Catholic, German Lutheran or Swedish Calvinist. Law is one and for all. I know it is truism but I post it anyway in the context of few posts above regarding "Muslims in general"

Pole

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Pole

You are wrong. Pre-1492 Muslim-to-the-bone Spain was in full bloom. Treaties of medicine, chemistry, philosophy, astronomy, works of literature and arts were of highest standards and stand up to today's scrutiny. Plenty of that findings contributed massively to the progress of late maedieval Europe. Discarding en masse achievements of Muslim culture and its achievements is fundamentally wrong. We must observe the "slight" difference between Muslim culture in general and people, who often, willingly or not turn it into its nightmarish caricature.

Pole

Hehe, again this nonsens argument comes up. If I may quote myself from one of my previous writings on this often distorted detail:

Originally Posted by The dialogue that never was

An especially popular myth is that of the tolerant and peaceful caliphate in Cordoba, which often is referred to as an evidence of how cultivated and tolerant Islam is towards other cultures. That is complete nonsense, unfortunately. It is true that Christian and Jews were living in Cordoba, and that the very first Caliphs of Cordoba were a bit more tolerant than many other Islamic rulers. It also is true that in that epoch major scriptures from the heritage of ancient Greek culture as well as Christian scriptures, that both later influenced and facilitated the renaissance and the enlightenment, were translated and stored in archives without which they probably would have been lost. It also is true that sciences saw a blossoming during the time of the Cordoba Caliphate, and that a huge diversity of Islamic philosophers went there and formed new ways of thinking and theological dispute.

But if anyone would take from that that Cordoba was a heaven-like coexistence of two cultures, he couldn’t be more wrong.

Because the Christians and Jews lived by rule of the Islamic ahl al-dhimma, which was a system not of tolerance and protection, but of brutal suppression, discrimination, racism, financial plundering and intimidation, they were subject to excessive penalty taxes, that were the main basis for the material wealth of the Caliphate at that time. It were also the Christians and Jews that initiated the translation and conservation of old Greek and Christian texts, which was tolerated by the Muslim rulers only because occasionally they could make opportunistic use of their content for Islamic purposes. But they neither assimilated these pieces of knowledge in to their culture, nor did they develop a liberal attitude in their acting and ruling of Cordoba, or Islam in general. They were using a tool, nothing more. Like always, Islam only exploited the resources available in newly conquered territories, but it did not assimilate these into it’s own culture, never – one of the most typical characteristics of Islam (that hardly can be understood and interpreted as a sign of tolerance and liberal tradition with regard to foreign cultures). Muslim sciences blossomed indeed in Cordoba, but their range were extremely limited, as it always was and still is in Islam. In Islam only sciences are allowed that are not able to question the only accepted source of explanations, that is the Quran. Questioning the Quran, wanting to gain answers to existential question from other sources than Quran, is under penalty in Islam. Sciences that are aiming at insights that could become rivals to the Quran’s demand to be the only source of wisdom and insight, were not and still are not allowed. Sciences that have a chance to produce alternative explanations and different theories than what the scriptures have to say are considered to be sinful, and forbidden. No wonder then, that sciences like mathematics and surgery saw a cultural climax that made them superior to the scientific knowledge within Europe at that time, whereas natural sciences, philosophy and such were suppressed and eradicated, until today. Most of those Islamic philosophers and theologians the defenders of the Cordoba-thesis are so eager to refer to, when telling people how wonderful Islam was for Europe during that age, are ignoring the simple fact, that most of these agile minds and rebels found an early end either in prison cells, or in graves. The blossoming of Cordoba wouldn’t have been possible without the knowledge and intelligence of the suppressed Jews and Christians, and the immense income they generated by their penalty taxes. Muslims took the benfit from this blossoming of culture, but they added little or nothing to it, and especially they did not initiate it. And although during a certain period of time the usual progroms and violence against Christians and Jews in general saw a relative low during the early period of Cordoba, they nevertheless were treated with disgust and were sometimes hunted and slaughtered nevertheless. A practice that erupted into far higher violence once the Almohades took over the ruling of the Islamic sphere. They erected a most violent and brutal regime all over the Muslim world.

Seen in this light, Hammas’ recent call for restoring the paradise-like order of Cordoba and reconquer it for Islam is not only absurd, but such a ridiculous perversion of history that one can only bitterly laugh about the lies this demand comprises. The massive exploitation of Christian and Jewish culture in that place may have been of fun and of use for Islam – for the Christians and Jews who lived there when Islam attacked their country, it was a dramatic tragedy and an age of suppression, regular massmurder and sometimes slavery-like conditions. We have no reason to enthuse about the magic and wonder of the age of Cordoba. It was Islamic aggressive conquest, suppression and exploitation, nothing else.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by xrvjorn

Does this also imply that you're not a real christian in your view, if you don't feel that your neighbour should be killed although you find out that he has worked on a Sunday?

(Exodus 35:2: "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.")

I'm no Christian.

The esssence of chrstianity is to be found in the teachings of Jesus, as far as I'm concerned. the old testament - well, history has moved beyond that. I don't fall for such stuff.

[Pole]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Hehe, again this nonsens argument comes up. If I may quote myself from one of my previous writings on this often distorted detail

That's not a valid point. Do you want to negate all of that times' contributions towards the continent's development? Were other countries more liberal at that time? No, they were so not.

Pole

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by xrvjorn

Don't be too surprised if he proposes a new Wannsee conference...

What I'd like my own government to do, is to prioritize police efforts to those areas where crime rates are skyrocketing and put the offenders behind bars (and keep them there!) because of the crimes they commit, not because of their colour or creed. Some groups are over represented in the crime statistic, so it'd be sensible to concentrate police efforts where those groups are to be found.

If you just get rid of entire groups, be it by resettlement to Madagaskar or be it by Zyklon B, the majority of the people you hurt will be innocent. Lock up the criminals and leave the rest in peace. Better still, lock up the criminals who are citizens and send the non citizens home, where you pay their country to lock them up in a local prison.

It was Muhammad, not me, telling people that any infidels should be overcome by whatver force and tool needed - they shall be converted, or be killed. The status of "dhimmi" is not really a protective arrangement for the "people of the book", butorganized discirmination, for Islam demands that Jews and christians must be made feel inferior and ashamed for not wanting to convert to Islam. and it was muhammad and muslims coming after him forming a canon of scriptures that explains in most explcits pitctures how diabloc infidels should be brought from life to death in the most cruel ways and tortures, like drowning them in boiling waters, strangulate them with burning iron chains, letting them feel the pain as intense as possible as a justified penalty send by Allah for their lacking faith into him. O Goa'uld he was, I would say

(…) Another misunderstanding of the West is with regard to the term ahl al-dhimma, which is misunderstood as a protective tolerance for members of different religions living in Islamic countries. As I have argued and illustrated in a longer thread weeks ago, in historical reality it was a status of discrimination and oppression that led as far as to regular progroms, living in ghettos, being subject to excessive taxes, and wearing discriminative clothing. Muslim children even had the right to kill Jewish males „for fun“ by throwing stones without having to fear penalties, and with rare exceptions jobs with some higher social reputation were forbidden, especially for Jews. There are some interesting Jewish historical figures, though, that made a career as Royal doctors, and higher servants in the administrative structures, though, but these are exceptions. The oppression under the covering of the dhimma-system was especially high during the ruling of the Almohades, and covered almost all Muslim territory from Spain to Persia. (…) http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48105

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Pole

That's not a valid point. Do you want to negate all of that times' contributions towards the continent's development? Were other countries more liberal at that time? No, they were so not.

Pole

That does not mean that Islam was any better. It was - and is - by far the most aggressivly pushing religious faction of all time.

But I have explained all this in detail time and again. You people simply do not look for it.

Not that I have already posted these links time and again...



http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/His...uranHadith.doc

ttp://people.freenet.de/Skybird/DialogueWithIslam.rtf

http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/BOI.doc

http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/His..._1_Forword.doc

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...ghlight=turkey

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...light=dialogue



All stuff from these threads:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...light=dialogue

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...light=dialogue

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...ghlight=turkey

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...650&highlight=

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...=history+islam

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...650&highlight=

[STEED]

Skybird strikes back

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Skybird

O Goa'uld he was, I would say

Ya know some of those leaders in the Middle East do seem to be over the top, egocentric, megalomaniacs… :hmm:

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by xrvjorn

Neither am I, but that wasn't the question. We just learned what it takes to be a real muslim, so I'm curious what it takes to be a real christian. Can a christian disregard the old testament and still be a real christian?

The core of the question is, if a real muslim has to buy the Sharia and all that fundamentalist cr@p, does a real christian have to do the same?

I want to know if the criteria for being a 'real' follower of a religion is different depending on the religion you follow.

bible and Qu'Ran do not compare. IMO the whole Qu'ran is of the quality and style and level like the Old testament. Also, you cannot separate Sharia and Qu'ran, like you try to do. Sharia is meant as a tool to make the believer sticking to the belief that the Qu'Ran is the only valid source of truth and devine enlightenment, by putting sanctions on not believing so. Sharia is the form, Qu'ran is the essence, the content of the form. Sharia and Qu'ran work hand in hand, cannot be seen as two separate qualties. They are like two sides of one and the same coin. In contrast I would reject a statement saying that Jesus' sermon on the mountain, or like he is described in the four gospels, reflects the old testament. Both parts of the bible speak of two very different ideas of an idol, the one a punishing, egocentirc, revenging vulcan-God whose good will miust be bought by obeying him and doing sacrifices, the other a metaphor for a raise of inner mental evolution, or a higher state of mind, if you want. That's why I do not get christian fundamentalists and the message of Jesus together. I would even say: if you want to be a christian in the understanding of following Jesus - you even must reject the old testament. Christian traditon came up with something that leads beyond that old testament. But Islam did not come up with something that leads beyond it's version of an old testment, the Qu'ran. It was so rigid from the beginning on, when Muhammad was trying to justify his demands by religious means to easily prohibit any opposition to them, that Islam was not able to form a higher developed view that could take over from this Muhammadian centre of views. It started to release rules prohibiting to do so very eraly, and this prohibitions still work today. There were attempts by clerics in the early centuries to implement alternative interpretations and schools and another form of theology than the circular-thinking orthodoxy - they got wiped out more effectively than the church had been able to supress opposition to it'S power monopole in europe. What survived these early attempts in Islam, let's call it the attempt to form an Islamic mystic, had then been battled down and often executed by Sahaladin ("defender of faith", which means he killed all heretic views on Islam, and whose perception in the West also is not in correspondence with the harsh and brutal historical reality of his person), and later during the mongolian attack on Persia and the destruction of Bagdhad, were major parts of the leading representatives of Islam of that time got killed, and almost all clerics represrnting the mystical side that they tried to establish. One could truly say that Islam has no mystic (the Sufis are not that mystic). A religion that has not mystic heart and centre, is a hollow body only. It'S rite, no experience. It is cult, no culture. It is satisfied to simply believe, it does not seek knowledge and insight. and all this primitivity it declares to be a virtue, of course. but it remaisn to be the mental horizon of people living in a hostile environment, 1400 years ago.

[Skybird]

Sorry guys, but at some point of time even me with my reputation of being an excessive writer find it tiresome to repeat what I had written again and again in the past. I wanted to point at the wishful thinking concerning ongoing and unlimited immigration, and the crashdown of integration in reality, when linking to that school event. Now I am again engaged in a discussion on Islam, like I had dozens, it seems, before. I have written several essays on Islam and how I see it and why I see it the way I do. This explains my unforgiving rjection and lacking tolerance for it. If you really want to know about me, get some of those essay I lionked to on page one, especially "The dialogue that never was", and "Critical History of Islam - Chapter 2: Qu'ran and Hadith."

I for myself leave this thread now. If you want to challenge me - we have a number of nice chess matches going on, a wonderful way to have a duel with someone.

[STEED]

Skybird chillout have some fun for a change

[joea]

Thanks for answering my question Sky.