LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #7: FFG Helo Dipper - Page 2

LuftWolf · 03-05-06, 02:53 PM

Ok, well after hours of sometimes frustrating work, I have made substantial progress on the entire issue of helo dipping sensors.

I have essentially applied the same fix to all helos, adding a shallow and deep "dipping sonar" to all the helos. I now need to write doctrines that work with the AI but don't break the AI FFG helo, and I hope that I can just edit down the already existing doctrines (they are direct copies from SC) and take out the commands that are no longer used.

I would have been done already, but I had to determine why half the helos ignored all their sonar sensors... turns out it was an old database value that is no longer used to record the number of sonobuoys on the helo, if its anything over 0, the sim treats the helo as if it is waiting to deploy a sonobuoy, and never checks the other sonar sensors, or that's what appears to be happening anyway.

SO, I have the rest of the day free, and barring a rendevous with a certain lady who just called me, I hope to have LWAMI 3.00 done tonight.

LuftWolf · 03-06-06, 02:21 PM

The process of setting the helo dipping sonars has proven to require substantial testing to get right.

I think I've got all the database problems by the junk now... so just a few more changes there and then I can do what I want to the doctrines, which will either work or it won't, but I am pretty sure that Plan B for those is a straightforward affair... so combine the readme into that work...

And I'd say that Wednesday afternoon is the absolute latest for a release.

Ok, so it will be done sometime between tonight and Wednesday.

PS I had hoped to finish sooner of course, but I didn't realize just how many factors needed to be accounted for with the helo dipping, I can see why SCS just disabled it entirely for the stock DW, if they didn't have the time to set the sensors just right, it could have made a big mess. Hell, I still might have made a big mess.

GunnersMate · 03-06-06, 02:31 PM

Why not fix the "visible waterfall but cant mark" problem?

I had to remove LWAMI because of it.

I would have given LWAMI a 10

but I cant even use it ! ! !

LuftWolf · 03-06-06, 02:42 PM

It's hardcoded in the interface, which means it is inaccessible to anyone but SCS. The problem only exists for the sphere array, and when the SNR is high enough (like 8 in the SW) the contact can be marked. This problem exists in stock DW as well, but is less noticable.

BTW, the community had a big conversation because of this.

The mod does not make the problem worse in gameplay terms, because you can mark the contacts on the NB sooner than in the stock database and the mean range at which contacts can be marked on BB remains the same, even though they are displayed sooner.

In other words, its unfortunate, but since you can mark the contacts on the NB as soon as they appear, it is really only a nuisance, and you are only missing out on the chance to get DEMON information... of course, if the contact is of low enough SNR, then you wouldn't get DEMON even if it was marked on the BB. So, in essence, it's a "cosmetic" problem, which is also good for me to say, since I can't do anything about it.

GunnersMate · 03-06-06, 02:51 PM

I cant mark contacts

BB NB SA HA WAA TA

until i've held them for 20 - 30 minutes

LuftWolf · 03-06-06, 02:54 PM

Then that is a problem with something other than the mod.

I'm not sure what to say... sometimes the graphic interface can be tricky when marking contacts, once you get the hang of it, you can learn the places to click relative to the diplay information. For example, people mention that it is hard to drop contacts on russian sonar, but after some practice I have found that I can drop contacts at will just by clicking in the right place near the tracker letters.

For NB, make sure you select your frequency as well as the bearing before trying to mark.

GunnersMate · 03-06-06, 02:57 PM

I tried clicking repeatedly fast, 5 degrees around LOB and paused both techniques. i was think of making a manual solution on nav map then trying tma on contact but i hate tma

LuftWolf · 03-06-06, 03:01 PM

I assume that is on the Broadband.

Take the same contact, go to the Narrowband. Go to the bearing of the contact, then click the screen on the first frequency line, then try to assign a tracker.

For the Broadband of the sphere array, yes there is a problem assigning trackers if the SNR is lower enough, but if it is above 8 or so (on the SW, other subs require a lower SNR... that's the nature of the bug), then it should work.

Other than the sphere array Broadband, all sensors should appear to function exactly the same with or without the mod.

And the changes related to the sonar have been around for some time (four months or more), so plenty of eyes have seen it work.

I hope this works for you.

GunnersMate · 03-06-06, 03:04 PM

I tried everything but after putting stock back it works

:hmm: I cant seem to figure it out!

LuftWolf · 03-06-06, 04:01 PM

It sounds like there might be some kind of corruption going on for you.

Unzip the LWAMI 3.00 Preview file into your main DW directory and let it overwrite all the files when prompted, being sure to allow the installer to write to the relative paths.

I know that might sound dumb, but you'd be surprised how many people have blown their installs...

LuftWolf · 03-07-06, 02:19 AM

So, are you ready for some good news?

We can control the altitude of the FFG AI controlled helo just like anyother AI aircraft at the doctrine level.

In other words, the MH60 will actually dip.

I still have yet to make it work in game terms, but I successfully manipulated the altitude of the AI helo while under player control.

I am going to make it speed dependant. So that the slower the helo goes, the lower it gets. When it is stopped, it will be dipping, when it is moving it will be higher, the faster, the higher... I hope to get this to work.

Cross your fingers.

Edit: Yes, I just got the player FFG helo to fly along at 300ft, and then come to a stop and dip down to 45ft after some flying around the waypoint (dipping time

). I then ordered the helo to go back to cruising speed and it went back up to 300ft.

It's all down hill from here, just the finishing up for the FFG AI helo... now to figure out how to intigrate this into the fully AI helo doctrine. :hmm:

And the gravy on the top is that the doctrine is overridden during recover procedures, so it doesn't interfer with the landing process of the FFG AI helo at all. I was worried about that... :|\

goldorak · 03-07-06, 04:59 AM

Sounds great Luftwolf

I have one question though : how far does the dipping sonar extend on the ai helo ? Is the depth always the same (lets say 400 ft) so sometimes the sonar will go under the layer and other times not (if the layer is way under 400 ft), or can the helo decide to use 2 settings (deep and shallow) depending on the circumstances ?

LuftWolf · 03-07-06, 05:56 AM

The AI Helo has multiple passive dippers set at 45ft, 600ft, and 1400ft. I can't enable them one at a time, so they all go active (meaning they start listening) at once when the helo is below 50ft. I have compensated for this by reducing the sensitivity of the dipping sonar.

I HAVE to share this with you guys.

I set up everything exactly the way I thought it should be only to find that when the helo came out of the dip, any contacts that it detected would still be updated on the link even though the helo was not still dipping!!! I thought this project was screwed... imagine, dip once, and permanent Show Truth on any detected contacts...

Fortunately, I was able to find a way to order AI platforms to drop contacts manually based on certain criterion... in this case, if the target was a sub and the helo was going over 10kts (meaning that it is not dipping).

I have put a lot of work into getting this just right for you guys, I can't wait to deliver it hot and fresh into your hands!

porphy · 03-07-06, 06:41 AM

Hi Luftwolf

Amazing work.

The helos really should be able to use the dipper. Your way of doing it seems really good. Btw, can't you fix the drunk planesmen in 1.03 as well...

It really disturbs my sense of law and order.

Cheers Porphy

goldorak · 03-07-06, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porphy

Hi Luftwolf

Amazing work.

The helos really should be able to use the dipper. Your way of doing it seems really good. Btw, can't you fix the drunk planesmen in 1.03 as well...

It really disturbs my sense of law and order.

Cheers Porphy

Not to mention that because of this drunken planesman at least on the akula when going from deep to shallow the towed array will be broken, even if the sub changes depth at 5 knots.
This wasn't happening in the previous versions.

View Poll Results: Should I add a "dipping sonar" to the FFG AI helo?
Yes	34	97.14%
No (please explain)	1	2.86%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

03-05-06, 02:53 PM	#16
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Ok, well after hours of sometimes frustrating work, I have made substantial progress on the entire issue of helo dipping sensors. I have essentially applied the same fix to all helos, adding a shallow and deep "dipping sonar" to all the helos. I now need to write doctrines that work with the AI but don't break the AI FFG helo, and I hope that I can just edit down the already existing doctrines (they are direct copies from SC) and take out the commands that are no longer used. I would have been done already, but I had to determine why half the helos ignored all their sonar sensors... turns out it was an old database value that is no longer used to record the number of sonobuoys on the helo, if its anything over 0, the sim treats the helo as if it is waiting to deploy a sonobuoy, and never checks the other sonar sensors, or that's what appears to be happening anyway. SO, I have the rest of the day free, and barring a rendevous with a certain lady who just called me, I hope to have LWAMI 3.00 done tonight. __________________ LW

03-06-06, 02:21 PM	#17
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	The process of setting the helo dipping sonars has proven to require substantial testing to get right. I think I've got all the database problems by the junk now... so just a few more changes there and then I can do what I want to the doctrines, which will either work or it won't, but I am pretty sure that Plan B for those is a straightforward affair... so combine the readme into that work... And I'd say that Wednesday afternoon is the absolute latest for a release. Ok, so it will be done sometime between tonight and Wednesday. PS I had hoped to finish sooner of course, but I didn't realize just how many factors needed to be accounted for with the helo dipping, I can see why SCS just disabled it entirely for the stock DW, if they didn't have the time to set the sensors just right, it could have made a big mess. Hell, I still might have made a big mess. __________________ LW

03-06-06, 02:31 PM	#18
GunnersMate Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USS Sea Tiger Posts: 251 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Why not fix the "visible waterfall but cant mark" problem? I had to remove LWAMI because of it. I would have given LWAMI a 10 but I cant even use it ! ! ! __________________ \"Sir they just fired an Exocet at us!\" \"Very well, Bosn pipe Sweepers\" I\'m having trouble with the radar, sir. What\'s wrong with it? I\'ve lost the bleeps, I\'ve lost the sweeps, and I\'ve lost the creeps.

03-06-06, 02:42 PM	#19
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	It's hardcoded in the interface, which means it is inaccessible to anyone but SCS. The problem only exists for the sphere array, and when the SNR is high enough (like 8 in the SW) the contact can be marked. This problem exists in stock DW as well, but is less noticable. BTW, the community had a big conversation because of this. The mod does not make the problem worse in gameplay terms, because you can mark the contacts on the NB sooner than in the stock database and the mean range at which contacts can be marked on BB remains the same, even though they are displayed sooner. In other words, its unfortunate, but since you can mark the contacts on the NB as soon as they appear, it is really only a nuisance, and you are only missing out on the chance to get DEMON information... of course, if the contact is of low enough SNR, then you wouldn't get DEMON even if it was marked on the BB. So, in essence, it's a "cosmetic" problem, which is also good for me to say, since I can't do anything about it. __________________ LW

03-06-06, 02:51 PM	#20
GunnersMate Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USS Sea Tiger Posts: 251 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I cant mark contacts BB NB SA HA WAA TA until i've held them for 20 - 30 minutes __________________ \"Sir they just fired an Exocet at us!\" \"Very well, Bosn pipe Sweepers\" I\'m having trouble with the radar, sir. What\'s wrong with it? I\'ve lost the bleeps, I\'ve lost the sweeps, and I\'ve lost the creeps.

03-06-06, 02:54 PM	#21
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Then that is a problem with something other than the mod. I'm not sure what to say... sometimes the graphic interface can be tricky when marking contacts, once you get the hang of it, you can learn the places to click relative to the diplay information. For example, people mention that it is hard to drop contacts on russian sonar, but after some practice I have found that I can drop contacts at will just by clicking in the right place near the tracker letters. For NB, make sure you select your frequency as well as the bearing before trying to mark. __________________ LW

03-06-06, 02:57 PM	#22
GunnersMate Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USS Sea Tiger Posts: 251 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I tried clicking repeatedly fast, 5 degrees around LOB and paused both techniques. i was think of making a manual solution on nav map then trying tma on contact but i hate tma __________________ \"Sir they just fired an Exocet at us!\" \"Very well, Bosn pipe Sweepers\" I\'m having trouble with the radar, sir. What\'s wrong with it? I\'ve lost the bleeps, I\'ve lost the sweeps, and I\'ve lost the creeps.

03-06-06, 03:01 PM	#23
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I assume that is on the Broadband. Take the same contact, go to the Narrowband. Go to the bearing of the contact, then click the screen on the first frequency line, then try to assign a tracker. For the Broadband of the sphere array, yes there is a problem assigning trackers if the SNR is lower enough, but if it is above 8 or so (on the SW, other subs require a lower SNR... that's the nature of the bug), then it should work. Other than the sphere array Broadband, all sensors should appear to function exactly the same with or without the mod. And the changes related to the sonar have been around for some time (four months or more), so plenty of eyes have seen it work. I hope this works for you. __________________ LW

03-06-06, 03:04 PM	#24
GunnersMate Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USS Sea Tiger Posts: 251 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I tried everything but after putting stock back it works :hmm: I cant seem to figure it out! __________________ \"Sir they just fired an Exocet at us!\" \"Very well, Bosn pipe Sweepers\" I\'m having trouble with the radar, sir. What\'s wrong with it? I\'ve lost the bleeps, I\'ve lost the sweeps, and I\'ve lost the creeps.

03-06-06, 04:01 PM	#25
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	It sounds like there might be some kind of corruption going on for you. Unzip the LWAMI 3.00 Preview file into your main DW directory and let it overwrite all the files when prompted, being sure to allow the installer to write to the relative paths. I know that might sound dumb, but you'd be surprised how many people have blown their installs... __________________ LW

03-07-06, 02:19 AM	#26
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	So, are you ready for some good news? We can control the altitude of the FFG AI controlled helo just like anyother AI aircraft at the doctrine level. In other words, the MH60 will actually dip. I still have yet to make it work in game terms, but I successfully manipulated the altitude of the AI helo while under player control. I am going to make it speed dependant. So that the slower the helo goes, the lower it gets. When it is stopped, it will be dipping, when it is moving it will be higher, the faster, the higher... I hope to get this to work. Cross your fingers. Edit: Yes, I just got the player FFG helo to fly along at 300ft, and then come to a stop and dip down to 45ft after some flying around the waypoint (dipping time ). I then ordered the helo to go back to cruising speed and it went back up to 300ft. It's all down hill from here, just the finishing up for the FFG AI helo... now to figure out how to intigrate this into the fully AI helo doctrine. :hmm: And the gravy on the top is that the doctrine is overridden during recover procedures, so it doesn't interfer with the landing process of the FFG AI helo at all. I was worried about that... :\|\ __________________ LW

03-07-06, 04:59 AM	#27
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Sounds great Luftwolf I have one question though : how far does the dipping sonar extend on the ai helo ? Is the depth always the same (lets say 400 ft) so sometimes the sonar will go under the layer and other times not (if the layer is way under 400 ft), or can the helo decide to use 2 settings (deep and shallow) depending on the circumstances ?

03-07-06, 05:56 AM	#28
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	The AI Helo has multiple passive dippers set at 45ft, 600ft, and 1400ft. I can't enable them one at a time, so they all go active (meaning they start listening) at once when the helo is below 50ft. I have compensated for this by reducing the sensitivity of the dipping sonar. I HAVE to share this with you guys. I set up everything exactly the way I thought it should be only to find that when the helo came out of the dip, any contacts that it detected would still be updated on the link even though the helo was not still dipping!!! I thought this project was screwed... imagine, dip once, and permanent Show Truth on any detected contacts... Fortunately, I was able to find a way to order AI platforms to drop contacts manually based on certain criterion... in this case, if the target was a sub and the helo was going over 10kts (meaning that it is not dipping). I have put a lot of work into getting this just right for you guys, I can't wait to deliver it hot and fresh into your hands! __________________ LW

03-07-06, 06:41 AM	#29
porphy Commodore Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 603 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Hi Luftwolf Amazing work. The helos really should be able to use the dipper. Your way of doing it seems really good. Btw, can't you fix the drunk planesmen in 1.03 as well... It really disturbs my sense of law and order. Cheers Porphy __________________ "The only remedy for madness is the innocence of facts." O. Mirbeu "A paranoid is simply someone in possession of all the facts." W. B.