U.S. options in Iraq worsen as unrest grows

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Disclaimer:
This thread has not been started by Skybird.

:rotfl:

[Ishmael]

It's all about oil and petrodollars. Saddam wasn't a threat until he started demanding payment in euros instead of dollars. Then the drumbeat for war started. Iran announces it is setting up an oil bourse or market for euros instead of dollars. Now the drumbeat for war with Iran starts. Bush asks for $76 mil in emergency aid to help dissidents in Iran. The US overthrew Mossadegh in the 50's and installed the Shah. 25 years later that bears fruit with Khomeini and the spread of Islamic fundamentalism. We arm Afghani freedom fighters in the 80's. This morphs into the Taliban and Al Qaeda. God knows what seeds will sprout from this misadventure in Iraq. We already have a budding Islamic republic in the south. We should take a page from the Germans and start synthesizing diesel fuel from coal, drill anywhere in the US for oil and make this country energy independent.

I would also explore the idea of union with Mexico. A recent poll revealed that 50% of Mexicans polled would move to the US given the opportunity. Let's move the US to them. Trade our current porous 2000 mile border for a 400 mile one with Guatemala and Belize. Oh, did I mention that Mexico has oil too? I realize I am somewhat biased in this direction, but it was my ancestor Gen. Winfield Scott, who conquered Mexico in 1845. I also have more in common with my Catholic neighbors to the south than with a bunch of Muslims halfway around the world. Other benefits would be bringing all those maquilladora factories under US control and US wage and hour laws for Mexicans, not to mention a huge pool of labor for social security taxes. So say it loud!

Statehood for Mexico!

[Torplexed]

We could call it Meximerica. Or Amerexico.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by blue3golf

I've been there twice now and the funny thing is they don't want freedom or anything else. They want it their way, period.

Originally Posted by blue3golf

We can't win either way. Pulling out means we lose everything and those that didn't come home was in vain. If we stay it's gonna be the same as now. Maybe isolationism like back in the day wass the way to go.

I've always wondered what the average GI over there is htinking. As a veteran i think i have an idea, but honestly, i know better then think that. . Like ive told a few people about my own experiences, "you weren't there, how would you know?! how could you possibly understand?!". LIkewise, while im a vet with his own experiences - i wasnt in this particualr slice of hell, how would i know? So ive always been curious as to what the boots on the ground are thinking.

As for pulling out, im all for it, and im against it. Pulling out would mean that comrades have died for nothing. Staying put isnt exactly rosy either. What do you do? Personnaly when faced with a similar experience, i just stopped thinking about it and lived one day at a time. Not much else you can do really. When i got out of the service, i did find myself as a newfound Isolationism fan, with a through disgust of overpatriotic flagwavers wraping themselves in the flag, and watching CNN like its a football game.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I've always wondered what the average GI over there is htinking. As a veteran i think i have an idea, but honestly, i know better then think that. . Like ive told a few people about my own experiences, "you weren't there, how would you know?! how could you possibly understand?!". LIkewise, while im a vet with his own experiences - i wasnt in this particualr slice of hell, how would i know? So ive always been curious as to what the boots on the ground are thinking.

As for pulling out, im all for it, and im against it. Pulling out would mean that comrades have died for nothing. Staying put isnt exactly rosy either. What do you do? Personnaly when faced with a similar experience, i just stopped thinking about it and lived one day at a time. Not much else you can do really. When i got out of the service, i did find myself as a newfound Isolationism fan, with a through disgust of overpatriotic flagwavers wraping themselves in the flag, and watching CNN like its a football game.

It sounds like Nam all over again, but this time those kids Opted for it. they wanted to join the military whereas in there we were forced into it. So its the same hell brought on by politics, only our kids chose this one so in a way it is worse then Nam. I wanted more for our future, not the same thing.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Mustang

It sounds like Nam all over again, but this time those kids Opted for it. they wanted to join the military whereas in there we were forced into it. So its the same hell brought on by politics, only our kids chose this one so in a way it is worse then Nam. (...)

Really? Is really every young and green soldier aware of what is ahead of him when as a young boy he joins the military, having seen those tasty TV spots, having lived his teenage years by an impression that war is as clean an affair like those TV pics seem to express? Could those kids really have known in advance? Could they really form independent opinions when beeing raised in an excessively patriotic climate that sometimes almost forbids to ask critical questions to the president? And news medias only report heavily streamlined infos? Ducimus called it the "disgust of overpatriotic flagwavers wraping themselves in the flag, and watching CNN like its a football game." Well, that could have been from me Back in 2003 I was under heavy fire here on this board when I attacked the wisdom to go to war and questioned Bush's motives and understanding again and again. But most of the time I left the regular military, the single individual soldier out of it. My anger never was with them, or the principles on which America had been founded. My anger was with the widening gap between these prionciples on paper, and today'S reality and real motives of politics. Veterans usually do not easily vote for war - they know it better. And it is not the young boy's fault that they have been born and raised in this and no other social, over-patriotic climate that teaches them misleading perceptions of what war is. Recruiters visit school classes with pupils of age 15, 16 - kids they are, and often they get talked into something that they cannot know better at that age. I never was angry on those young ones beeing sent over there. I assume most of them really believed that they were participating in something good and that they could trust the motives of their supreme commander in the WH. Naive maybe, but not evil. In a way they had my sympathy, or compassion. Having worked in the field of traumatization myself for a short while, and having red about the late conseqeunces of the war 1991 (Gulf war syndrom, post-stress-syndrom, destruction of chemical weapons sites by open explosions, oil in the atmosphere, Uranium ammunition) I must assume that the real casualties of the foreign armies in Iraq already are in the range of high tens of thousands, if not beyond the 100.000-barrier. And most people will carry their wounds invisible, inside themselves, for the rest of their lifes.

This is what recruiters in schools usually do not tell you, and what the TV commercials hide from you. From my German perspective I find this habit of recruiters poatrolling schools and streets - shameful.

So, maybe you want to be a bit more forgiving or direct your criticism into another direction instead of saying "the kids opted for it"? Or did I understand your attitude wrong here? The politcial and economical decision makers, the think tanks - this is where to look for the guilty ones. Your troops in Iraq - somehow they are joining the rows of the many civilian victims (and the latter are the one who pay the real toll for this mess).

Nichts für ungut!

[August]

Stay the course.

"THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated."

Thomas Paine "The Crisis"

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by August

and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.

In this case, who's freedom? The US' or Iraq's?

If the US', what needs to be done in Iraq with regard to US freedom?

If Iraq's, what if they don't want US style freedom, as has been pointed out?

[Skybird]

Fight or don't, there is no in between. But it is exactly such seductive words like those you quoted that deserve my disgust, August. It is the kind of talking the schoolteacher in "All quite on the Western front" uses to make the boys in his class flame up in hot emotions of passions and sacrifice and be enthusiastic to be sent into the heart of horror. It tricks people into something by absuing their emotions, and it does so to let war appear more tasty.

Auch beste Waffen sind Zeichen des Todes,
Der Weise verächtlich meidet sie,
Er wendet sich ab von ihnen.
Die Freude erfüllt sein Leben im Frieden,
Die Trauer erfüllt sein Leben im Krieg.
Waffen sind nicht des Wesens Weise,
Nur gezwungen benutzt sie ein weiser Mensch,
Wenn es garnicht mehr anders sonst geht.
Nichts weiß er von der Freude am Kämpfen,
Den Sieg zu lieben heißt mordfreudig sein.
Wer mordfreudig ist, ist außerhalb der Freude, zu leben.
Nach dem Sieg ist der Truppe die Freude,
Dem Feldherrn indes sei die Trauer,
Er begehe den Sieg wie eine Trauerfeier.
Töten heißt Trauer schaffen,
Wessen Handeln Trauer schafft,
Dem sei jeder Sieg wie ein Begräbnis.

Lao Tse: TaoTeKing XXXI
(translation by myself)

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Skybird

(translation by myself)

What translation?????

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

What translation?????

Sorry, I did my own translation into German, since I was not satisfied with any of the German versions that I know. the numerous translations into Western languages can vary so significantly that sometimes you don't realize that it is the same passage your read when comparing various translations. you cannot translate chinese into Wetsern language in thta linear way you translate Italian into French. It is too different.

Even the best of weapons are signs of death / Auch beste Waffen sind Zeichen des Todes,
The wise man avoids them contemptuously / Der Weise verächtlich meidet sie,
He turns away from them. / Er wendet sich ab von ihnen.
Joy fills his life in peace, / Die Freude erfüllt sein Leben im Frieden,
Mourning fills his life in war. / Die Trauer erfüllt sein Leben im Krieg.
Weapons are not the way of the tao, / Waffen sind nicht des Wesens Weise,
Only if forced a wise man uses them, / Nur gezwungen benutzt sie ein weiser Mensch,
If there is no other way out. / Wenn es garnicht mehr anders sonst geht.
Nothing he knows of the delight in fighting, / Nichts weiß er von der Freude am Kämpfen,
Delight in victory means to be bloodthirsty ("murder-thirsty"). / Den Sieg zu lieben heißt mordfreudig sein.
The one who is bloodthirsty is outside of the pleasure to live. / Wer mordfreudig ist, ist außerhalb der Freude, zu leben.
After victory the army's share is of delight, / Nach dem Sieg ist der Truppe die Freude,
But the general's share shall be the mourning, / Dem Feldherrn indes sei die Trauer,
He shall celebrate victory as if it were a funeral service. / Er begehe den Sieg wie eine Trauerfeier.
Killing means creating mourning, / Töten heißt Trauer schaffen,
For the one whose acts create mouring, / Wessen Handeln Trauer schafft,
Every victory shall be like a funeral. / Dem sei jeder Sieg wie ein Begräbnis.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Fight or don't, there is no in between. But it is exactly such seductive words like those you quoted that deserve my disgust, August. It is the kind of talking the schoolteacher in "All quite on the Western front" uses to make the boys in his class flame up in hot emotions of passions and sacrifice and be enthusiastic to be sent into the heart of horror. It tricks people into something by absuing their emotions, and it does so to let war appear more tasty.

You may be disgusted but Paine says nothing about being enthusiastic or making war appear more "tasty" to foolish schoolboys with dreams of battlefield glory like your schoolteacher did in AQOTWF. You either misunderstand Paines message or you're reacting to the fact that it was me who posted it here.

FYI what Paine talks about is finishing a job that has already begun. Staying the course in the face of difficulty. Meeting the challenges of a task one has undertaken and seeing it through in spite of adversity. After all it's very easy to be a "sunshine patriot" or "summer soldier", hopping on the bandwagon when everything is going well and distancing oneself from it when things don't. It's much more difficult however to stick with a tough job and not quit when things go badly.

I personally think it would be an extreme disservice to our soldiers who have lost their lives in this conflict to just give up and go home without having done everything we can do to achieve the objectives we sent them to fight and die for.

Make no mistake. The objective of a free and democratic Iraq is indeed a worthy goal. If it can be achieved it sets the entire region on a path to peace and prosperity. But such things do not come easily, nothing worthy and good ever has in the entire history or man.

If we abandon the Iraqis now we might as well also abandon the Israelis and everyone else that we consider our friends and who need our protection. I thank God every day that I don't live in a country where such two faced cowardice comes easily.

[August]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

In this case, who's freedom? The US' or Iraq's?

If the US', what needs to be done in Iraq with regard to US freedom?

If Iraq's, what if they don't want US style freedom, as has been pointed out?

I disagree with the premise that Iraqis don't want freedom and I think the millions of purple Iraqi thumbs back up that belief. There are those who advocate withdrawing our support of your nation as well. Should we listen to them?

[Skybird]

I've red the quote by Paine again, and it still does not sound well in my ears. And I see no sign of that "glorious triumph" in sight. In fact I said from the beginning that the whole enterprise is doomed to fail and would go much the way as it did so far. Maybe you think it is bad service to your dead to give up the mission now. I say it is bad service to increase their numbers on and on, all for nothing. The dead are dead, my concern is about the living - life still is theirs.

And no, I did not react to the circumstance that it was you posting that answer. We disagree again, like so very often, and we both had time enough to get used to that, right?

[Bort]

FYI what Paine talks about is finishing a job that has already begun. Staying the course in the face of difficulty. Meeting the challenges of a task one has undertaken and seeing it through in spite of adversity. After all it's very easy to be a "sunshine patriot" or "summer soldier", hopping on the bandwagon when everything is going well and distancing oneself from it when things don't. It's much more difficult however to stick with a tough job and not quit when things go badly.

However, when Paine made this statement, he was writing of a nation fighting for its own liberty, not of a nation led by an imbecile trying to shove the institution of democracy down anothers throat against the will of armed resisters. If the Iraqis are so inclined to seek inspiration from Paine's words, than let them fight for their own future. But the same words have little meaning for the United States at this time.