For airforce fans - dogfight video

[Abraham]

Thanks U-214 for your extended answers.
I'm quite surprises that the Aegean is such a hot area.
I'm intertested because recently I flew a lot on a shared KLM/Cyprus Air flight to Cyprus, just past Turkey, and was wondering about this conflict...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

The strangest HUD video I ever saw was I believe one US F15 smacking into the canopy of another way up there.

Talk about close!

Fairly sure thats a F-16 not a F-15. (the 2nd plane to fly by right?)

Anyways U-214 I see you listed the A-7 Corsair II in Greece's Air Force. Good to see they didn't discard those birds. Fantastic planes, they have a good range and a huge bomb load. My dad worked in an A-7 squadron in the US Navy and loves them.

[U-214]

This is bad, my Grandfather on my Mother's side (actually from the Ionnina area) took part in the doomed 1922? campaign in Smyrna (on the Greek side) and last year I visited Cappadocia in Turkey where my father's ancestors come from, they were also Greek btw.

My grandfather was also there in 1922.Pitty,we would have got rid of a bad neighbour once and for all,we arrived at 50 miles from Ankara and then lost a battle and the war.It was the fault of the ungrateful mainland voters though,that brought back the King in Greece and this shifted some of the super powers into helping Turkey.Oddly there is still a trauma in Turkey left,which makes them paranoid (i ve "met" in internet some that actually think we may invade them...)

Most of people in Turkey are actually pretty nice, but the government, and the huge influence of the Turkish army is rather scary.

Yes,the problem is the deification of the figure of Kemal Ataturk,the fact that in his testament-constitution he gave to the army the role of the guarantor of the constitution and so it has privileged position in their society and in their business.Because unlike in any other country,most of the "state" weapons factories are in reality "army owned" ,so they have every reason to want an arms race,since they feed their own pockets.And the propaganda with which the Turks are fed by their military establishment is unbeleivable.They are so brainwashed that are convinced that Greece is the provocating factor seeking clash with Turkey.The fact that we are 11 mln and they are 70mnl or that strangely we don't ask any turkish soil is irrelevant.It's them who are patient with us.

I also am disappointed the EU could not bring about a settlement of the Cyprus question.

Duh,the EU has taken no real position (other than nice words on papers/resolutions)for greek-turkish disputes and consider than Greece is in the ECC and later EU since 1981.So go figure if they are in hurry to do anything about Cyprus which only entered the EU 2 years ago...The UN resolutions on Cyprus against Turkey would make Saddam look like a boy scout,yet not only all close their eyes to them,but Britain and USA have clear pro-turkish position.Anyway,Cyprus is pursuing better her interests once in the EU than Greece is ,if you ask me.We are in a sleepy condition ,simply giving "green light" to Turkey with no exchange since 1999.At the end we ll let Turkey in the EU and nothing will have changed in their behaviour.

http://www.hri.org/Cyprus/Cyprus_Pro...ions-list.html

It's called "realpolitik".That's why we arm ourselves,because we 've learned that we can't count on anyone if something happens in the Aegean,just like in 1996 Newsweek was out with an article about how we almost went to war about "2 rocky islets that Greeks call Imia and Turks call Kardak".Well,the result of that "innocent" incident were the maps claiming 150 more,like i posted above.But Newsweek didn't bother to say "hey,let's see who's right".And even those who knew,didn't say anything pubblic.The Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs at the time,Lamberto Dini,sent a telegram to the Turks the night of the crisis saying that the islands were indeed part of the Dodekanese and transfered from Italy to Greece after WWII.A turkish newspaper lately revealed that the turkish minister that received the telegraph concealed it from the turkish PM of the time (Tansu Ciler).Yet,still today ,with everything against them,they continue this "dispute".The funny is that the Turks raised the SAME dispute with the Italians in 1932 and the Italians had the borders delimitated AGAIN in detail in a Treaty,which also specifically says that Imia (Kardak in Turkish) was in the Italian side of the border (and so later greek):

30. a moitie distance entre Kardak [Imia] (R.k.s.)et Kato I. (Anatolie),
http://www.hri.org/docs/mpadocs/96-02-01.mpadocs.html

That's why Dini was sending telegraphs,cause it's mentioned by name.Also in Lausanne Treaty 1923 it is clearly stated that Turkey doesn't have any sovereignty over islands over 3nm from its coast.
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html
Imia are 3,3 nm away from their coast.

But of course treaties like that are details when you are in for something.

And so every now and then we have a new "dispute" raised and we have to behave politely about it.Like if you have a neighbour that wakes up after 80 years and says "listen my garden should be 5 meters inside your garden and so i call that gray zone and ask you to find a middle solution like reasonable people,but i won't bring you to court for that claim of mine".What are you supposed to do?Strangely all the "disputes" are about dividing something greek and are raised unilaterally by Turkey.

Thanks U-214 for your extended answers.
I'm quite surprises that the Aegean is such a hot area.
I'm intertested because recently I flew a lot on a shared KLM/Cyprus Air flight to Cyprus, just past Turkey, and was wondering about this conflict...

My friend,for a year we were even in CIA's "most likely to explode" list.Thankfully we arrived close but didn't quite explode.

I m glad you weren't a passenger of flight like this:

June 30, 2003 - Two Turkish F-16s harassed a commercial plane of the Greek express courier company "Veravia". The propeller cargo plane had taken off from Athens' "Eleftherios Venizelos" International Airport and was en route to Larnaca Airport in Cyprus.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article697.html

Turkish F-16s buzz Greek passenger plane
By Lieven

June 9, 2003 - Today, two Turkish F-16s flew close to an Olympic Airways Boeing 717 in Greek airspace, triggering the crash avoidance alarm and prompting a protest by the Greek Foreign Ministry. The passenger plane (flight 321) was en route from Athens to Istanbul.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article652.html


Because as i said,they don't submit flight plans.They roar into the Athens FIR and unless our aircrafts identify them and ask them flight plans,the civillian flights end up like that.


Another time they flew 300 ft over the Rhodes civillian airport.The problem is,if we do shoot them down first,we risk having Newsweek or any other saying again "an incident occured in what the Greeks call defense of their airspace and the Turks hostile action ".The rest on who was the aggressor and who was the victim will be a political decision of the various govs and we know that US will support Turkey..And if a war starts,Greece wants Turkey to be the one to fire the first shot for political reasons.For example even the 1996 dogfight that ended up in the Turkish F-16 being shot down,could have had political conseguences.Now,both sides kept it as "accident" untill a greek newspaper 2 years ago wrote something and a retired Turk Chief of Staff made pubblic declaration that it was in deed shot down.The result was that the family of the Turkish pilot,encouraged by the gov,threatened to sue Greece before the European Court of Human Rights.

March 4, 2004 - According to Turk.us, the family of a Captain who was killed in a dog fight over the Aegean Sea, sued Athens, at the European Court for Human Rights (ECHR). Pilot Captain Nail Erdogan was killed in a F-16 during the flight over the Aegean on 8 October 1996. The petition of his family to the ECHR has been accepted by the court.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1012.html

At the end this was proven not true and there was no case filed against Greece,but the Turks leaked this rumour probably for "internal consumption" as there should have been some form of "satisfaction" inside Turkey once it was admitted that the plane was shot down.A matter of prestige,since they also cultivate the idea of "invincible" army.



You can choose your friends ,but you can't choose your neighbours.Unfortunately,since the ancient times we are in the border of Europe being first in the row of repelling asian attackers...

[U-214]

Anyways U-214 I see you listed the A-7 Corsair II in Greece's Air Force. Good to see they didn't discard those birds. Fantastic planes, they have a good range and a huge bomb load. My dad worked in an A-7 squadron in the US Navy and loves them.

Yes,they are still in service (also in Portugal if my memory still serves me) ,well known as "work horses" and have been also certified to use Maverick G IIR and AFDS as well as IR pods in our airforce.But they will be retired by 2010-2012.We keep them mainly for CAS missions exactly because of their great range and bomb cargo.

Greek pilots also love them.I 've been told that in bombing missions they are maybe even more precise than the F-16 and behave very well in ultra low flying.But they are growing old and their main disadvantage is that aren't AMRAAM capable ,so they need constant protection by CAP squadrons.

For deep strike missions their duty is now taken over by the 2 seated F-16s Block 52+ mainly and the Mirage2000 with SCALP (250 km range)

[U-214]

And another example of how one can rely on foreign press to say what happens.From CNN about the 1996 crisis:

Greece, Turkey circle island each says is theirs

http://www-cgi.cnn.com/WORLD/9601/tu...reece_dispute/

The title alone is very eloquent...It would require just to open a map and say whose really is even without reading the treaties.

And this is how you can orchestrate the whole dispute:

"The conflicting claims emerged late last month after a Turkish ship ran aground near the islet and refused assistance from the Greek coast guard, saying it was on Turkish territory."


So the crisis happened,we almost went to war,and they say "there are 150 disputed islands,let's talk and divide them".Something like "let's divide your property".But at the same time they are allergic to the sound of "Court of Hague"...

[U-214]

And a last example of what we have to put up with...How is that saying "If you have to say a lie,make it as big as possible"?

Greece since 1999 that didn't stop Turkey getting candidate status in EU is trying to take as exchange,a EU comittment that will force Turkey to find peaceful solution.In deed since 1999 the court of Hague is mentioned in Eu papers,after greek insistance.

In Turkey the newspapers say the opposite!That Turkey wants to go to Hague and Greece doesn't wants to!And this is propagandised even in govermental turkish sites (note the gov.tr domain).And it's news of 1996 and STILL they haven't recognized it.

EU SLAPS DOWN ATHENS

The European Union (EU), tired of Greek obstinacy, has finally
declared that all the disputes between Turkey and Greece should be
settled by arbitration in the International Court of the Hague.

http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ...1/96X11X18.TXT

It is ABSURD,because Turkey ,as i mentioned before hasn't recognised Hague while Greece has!

This is the Greek declaration recognizing Hague,directly from the court's site:

GREECE
10 January 1994.

[Translation from the French]

I declare, on behalf of the Greek Government, that I recognize as compulsory ipso facto and without special agreement, on condition of reciprocity, in relation to any other State accepting the same obligation, the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice in all legal disputes referred to in Article 36, paragraph 2, of the Statute of the Court. However, the Greek Government excludes from the competence of the Court any dispute relating to defensive military action taken by the Hellenic Republic for reasons of national defence.

This declaration shall remain in force for a period of five years. Upon the expiry of that period, it shall continue to have effect until notice of its termination is given.

Athens, 20 December 1993.
http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/ibasic...tions.htm#grec

The Turkish doesn't exist,because Turkey has never done it.Yet they feed their people the idea ,that they want to go to Hague and we are holding them back!It is insane ,but that's what happens in a state where the military can bring down a goverment and nobody sweats.

Complete list of members of the UN and whether they have or not recognized the court (Turkey hasn't):

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/ibasic...UNmembers.html


Then go tell CNN who's right...

[U-214]

And this is the text in the EU-Turkey accession talks document ,which is celebrated by the greek side,because shows what Turkey must do (good relations,improve her relations,UN charter,Hague):

Greek FM satisfied with EU-Turkey pact
In article 19 of the agreement, ironed out throughout much of Friday, it states that the "European Council, while underlining the need for unequivocal commitment to good neighborly relations welcomed the improvements in Turkey's relations with its neighbors and its readiness to continue to work with the concerned Member States towards resolution of outstanding border disputes in conformity with the principle of peaceful settlement of disputes in accordance with the United Nations Charter ... In this connection it (European Council) reaffirmed its view that unresolved disputes having repercussions on the accession process, should if necessary be brought to the International Court of Justice for settlement. The European Council will be kept informed of progress achieved which it will review as appropriate."

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/...&article=14423

Probably in Turkey the same text was interpreted as a slap of the EU to Athens too and a reminder to Greece to conform to the UN Charter,be good neighbour and recognize Hague

[Rotary Crewman]

Originally Posted by U-214

TACTICAL TRANSPORT AIRCRAFTS

A400M: 0 (10 ordered)

:rotfl: As long as the 'war' is planned to happen after 2030 then the turks might get their A400Ms.

[SUBMAN1]

Are all Turkish and Greek pilots this bad? They are well outside the 330 knot minimum for max deg turn rate. The only reason to do this is to get a snapshot off, and that is not what they are doing.

-S

PS. As they say in the F-16 - if you aren't between 330 knots to 440 knots - GET THERE!

[U-214]

Are all Turkish and Greek pilots this bad? They are well outside the 330 knot minimum for max deg turn rate. The only reason to do this is to get a snapshot off, and that is not what they are doing.

-S

PS. As they say in the F-16 - if you aren't between 330 knots to 440 knots - GET THERE!

I wouldn't mind go in depth to this,but i am about to do a journey,but in about a month that i will be again available i ll try to catch up with this thread to see how it goes.


Now,to your question.I don't know who says about 330 knots,all i know is that if you get in repeated cycles of sustained turns,there is nothing that can hold your speed up,so all depends on the situation and what your opponent does.In the particular video,they are in the scissors.

A bit of information about the scissors:

Now lets assume that the same situation occurs, but one plane is going 200 knots and the other is going 275 knots.

If you come out of that second immelman with only 75 knots and your opponent comes out with 130, you are in a very bad position since he will be able to turn much better than you at that altitude.
http://members.aol.com/karbarra/tactics/scissors.html

So it appears there are no "laws" nor can a plane sustain its speed in any manouver whatever the case is and actually in the scissors if you are much faster than the opponent,you risk to overshoot and find him on your tail.

Or Here:

This Type Of Fight Is Called A Slow Speed Scissors, Because The Aircraft Flight Paths Criss-Cross Continually As Each Pilot Slows His Machine And Pulls To Put The Planes Nose Behind His Adversary.
http://www.afapo.hq.af.mil/Presentat...?IMAGE_ID=5349




As for how bad the pilots are,i think the F-4E pictures flying over the olive trees show that if not anything else,Greek pilots do some very dangerous trainning.And unlike most airforces ,since 1974 they are daily making real dogfights (apart the fact that the missiles aren't fired) against a potential true enemy.

This is the only exercize i have found with a quick search,it is old,but it is also before 1974,when these dogfights hadn't started yet and the trainning of both airforces wasn't so intense.

The 1971 meet was held at Eskisehir, Turkey, and hosted by General Mushin Batur, Chief of Staff of the Turkish Air Force. It brought together pilots from all three NATO Southern Region nations, plus a combined U.S. Navy-U.S. Air Force guest team. It also featured for the first time in international gunnery competition five different air weapon systems: Northrop F-5s, Fiat G-91s, North American F-100s, LTV A-7As from the USN, and McDonnell Douglas F-4Es from the USAF.

Final standings showed the Turks on top with 596 points, the combined U.S. team with 538, the Italians with 464, and the Greeks, the first-day leaders, with 422. By winning, the Turks were one up on their Southern Region allies...

...Preparations for “Best Hit ’72� started in November 1971, with the selection of an AIRSOUTH project officer. In December the agreement to host the meet at Larissa Air Base, Greece, was received from the then Hellenic Air Force Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Demetrios Kostakos...

Five points down at the end of the first day of competition, the Greek team rallied and took over the lead early in the morning of the second day of competition. They ended the day with a 14-point margin over the second-place U.S. team. Each consecutive day saw the Hellenic team gradually increasing its lead, to 29, 35, and 39 points, and when the meet ended they had won by a 28-point margin and a total score of 714 points. Finishing in second place was the USN-USAF guest team with 686 points. In third place was the Turkish team with 671 points, followed closely by the Italian team with 662.

The 714 points rolled up by the Greek team was the highest winning score to date. Besides the “Over-all Top Gun� of the meet, Captain G. Papaioannou, who amassed 136 points, all the members of the Greek team scored at least 110 points.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/a.../susskind.html

So,if in 1971 and 1972 when there were no active greekturkish disputes, Greeks and Turks were decent enough,i would deduce that today they have also improved somewhat seen the daily "trainning" and the fact that our airforce since 1974 trains for real war against a real enemy.

Regards