XXI Flak and Battery Fix v2 [ MOD RELEASE ]

[Average Joe]

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

It does auto-switch once the battery is 100%.

Holy Smokes, thanks!!

Yes I was the 1 that originaly "FIXED" the Type XXI, still using that fix today.

Last time I got a credit wrong (by mistake) I was hounded by 1 an all. When this thread came out I didnt even utter a squeek. Remember that ppl.!!!!!

I have ony now made a comment because my name was mentioned. The Type XXI I still want to redo, may do so after the Stage 2 release, dunno.

[Marhkimov]

Sorry bud... My bad...

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

Yes I was the 1 that originaly "FIXED" the Type XXI, still using that fix today.

No offense Gibs, but i never liked the idea of fixing the XXI by increasing the batts from 1.25 to 1000 in the basic.fg. Yes it worked, but the boat became a nuclear submarine with an endless supply of energy. Only reason to stick the snorke up was for air. For me that really blew any sense of game immersion out of the water. This ultimatly is what motivated me to look a bit deeper into the issue. Once i got my hands on TT's tools, i started researching it.

Most of what i found was centered around getting the recharge times to historical accuracy. Based on their findings, i started making my own adjustments. I halved Emotor Horsepower by halve on the assumption that because it was unlike any other boat (all of which worked) that it was part ot the problem. (Type 7 is 750 HP, a type 9 is 1000 - by default an 21 is 5000 HP, cutting it to 2500 seems to be the compromise that works) After that i boosted the diesal HP and RPMs a tad bit to increase recharge rates, but at a minimal expense of fuel. The more you buff the diesals, the more fuel they guzzle.

But at any rate you did come up with the first solution.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

No offense Gibs, but i never liked the idea of fixing the XXI by increasing the batts from 1.25 to 1000 in the basic.fg.

None taken, I dont rant on like some. When I posted that lil fix, I also stated that the 1000 was what I used but would not recommend it for those who like realism. With tinkering it could be corrected, never said no 1 could not do so.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I halved Emotor Horsepower by halve on the assumption that because it was unlike any other boat (all of which worked) that it was part ot the problem. (Type 7 is 750 HP, a type 9 is 1000 - by default an 21 is 5000 HP, cutting it to 2500 seems to be the compromise that works) After that i boosted the diesal HP and RPMs a tad bit to increase recharge rates, but at a minimal expense of fuel. The more you buff the diesals, the more fuel they guzzle.

But at any rate you did come up with the first solution.

I also in that same thread stated that fiddling with the electric motor's and the diesal motor's corresponding SHP rating's and RPM's can/would give ppl a more dynamic choice as to how the battery system worked.

I'm only pointed ppl to where it could be adressed and showed them an example, nothing more. I pointed out that how ever ppl prefered to have this implemented it was always a personal choice.

[Ducimus]

At any rate, the boat recharges as normal for now, so.....
If anyone wants to fiddle with the XXI's performance further, heres my final thoguhts on the subject, if i were still intrested in this boat, this is what id be working on:


Poor turn radius:
hate making 3 point turns just to get out of port? Adjust the rudder drag to 0.05. its in the diesl propulsion section in the sim file. This is the same value as the type9.

Poor underwater endurance:
One thing that bugged me is how fast the bats drained.

-First, id adjust the CFG file so that "ahead slow" put me at 4 to 5 kts, instead of 7. (default for ahead slow is 0.40, id bring that down to 0.30 or so and try from there) 4 or 5 kt drains bats slower then 7.

- Adjust Kt to distance. Looking at my file right now, i have 350 miles @ 7 kts. It has been along time since ive played with an XXI, but i do remmeber tinkering with its underwater range to extend it a bit further. Shouldnt run the bats down to 50% in half a day, and i think this is what i was trying to address when i was fiddling with this.


Long recharge times:
Now this is the tricky part. I beleive that the more diesel Horsepower and RPMS you have the more produces more electircity,, thereby shortening your recharge times. However this has two side effects if you increase it too much.


1.) your top speed will increase ( i beleive its 1 kt for every 500 HP)
2.) you'll use fuel much faster.

Ignoring the proper diesal range at the moment. (15500 @ 10 kt i think) ramp up the RPMS and see if you can decrease the recharge times. If that doesnt do it, then increase the Horsepower, (likely you'll do both). Your going to have to strike a balance here.. too little and your boat takes all day to recharge, too much and you'll suck fuel down faster then a Chevy suburban, with the speed of a farari. So find the happy spot.

Once you do that, heres what i think. The diesal range? Fudge it. Before you do any of the above make note of how many Kilometers in game you can travel. (Navagation officer in game)

Once youve ramped up the diesals to get the recharge you want, your going to have to use an artifical number to produce that same KM distance traveled that the navagation officer gives you orginally. (for example if 15,500 @ 10 KM gives you 26,000 Km in game now, then you could end up with something like 25,000 @ 12 KM to produce the same 26,000 KM range)

Having done that, your going to have to adjust your speed. Again, use an artifical number. Say on the surface your top speed is supposed to be 15 KM, but your really doing 25. Arbitrarily reduce the top speed on the surface to 10 to accomidate for the bonus speed your gaining through the increased horsepower.

[VonHelsching]

Ducumus, thanks for the feedback!

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Poor turn radius:
hate making 3 point turns just to get out of port? Adjust the rudder drag to 0.05. its in the diesl propulsion section in the sim file. This is the same value as the type9.

I fiddled a lot with the rudder, with some very funny results but decided not to include it in the fix. The reason is that a lot of people (more than 50%) of the forum would not approve of a solution that *might* not be realistic; Do we have any source about the manouverability of the XXI vs. VII or IX? My gut feeling is that XXI was something between VII and IX. Also, the drag should be linked to horsepower, right? It needs some further work...

As Spock would have said, the manuverabilty of the XXI is a "fascinating" issue...

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Poor underwater endurance:
One thing that bugged me is how fast the bats drained.

This probably is a feature, not a bug. Uboat.net states that the XXI could provide "bursts" of 17 knots. Anyway, personally I like this!

Originally Posted by Ducimus

-First, id adjust the CFG file so that "ahead slow" put me at 4 to 5 kts, instead of 7. (default for ahead slow is 0.40, id bring that down to 0.30 or so and try from there) 4 or 5 kt drains bats slower then 7.

@ all submarine gurus: Didn't all the subs have a "creep" speed (or was it a creep engine? )? I think Ducimus may have hit bullseye here, not only for the XXI, but for all the subs modelled in the game. Or is this modeled by the silent speed?

Re the long recharge times, I tried a lot of values, not finding any other better than the ones settled in the fix (close to the ones that you initially suggested). Although I'm a "gameplay" fan, having a surface speed bigger than ~15,5 (If I remember right) whould cross that little thin red line...Everyone is invited to play with the values and bring in alternative / better results

And one question...In which folder should I start searching for the location of the schnorchel radar and for the graphics file of the radar also? Thanks!

[Ducimus]

I fiddled a lot with the rudder, with some very funny results but decided not to include it in the fix. The reason is that a lot of people (more than 50%) of the forum would not approve of a solution that *might* not be realistic; Do we have any source about the manouverability of the XXI vs. VII or IX? My gut feeling is that XXI was something between VII and IX. Also, the drag should be linked to horsepower, right?

Your right about the realism setting. What funny results did you get btw? I have a feeling it may be relating to fuel economy. As for the manoverabilty, when i chose to change it, i made my change based one two things
1. 3 pt turns suck
2. Too much manoverablity would be overpowering. I think i remember looking at the VIIC and the IX rudder drags and opted to use the IX settings since its not as manuverable as the VII, yet better then the XXI.

That said, remember the XXI was designed for submerged performance first, surface performance second. The orginal stock settings being worse for manuverablity then an IX is probably the most correct. The rudders on these ships is fundamentally different.

This probably is a feature, not a bug. Uboat.net states that the XXI could provide "bursts" of 17 knots. Anyway, personally I like this!

To rephrase myself, going at ahead slow, i dont think the bats should be drained down to anywhere near the 40-50% mark in 6 hours. (10-12 hrs yes, 6 hrs no) I think this is what i was experiencing, and what i was trying to address. My memory could be foggy, i havent messed with it in awhile.

Didn't all the subs have a "creep" speed (or was it a creep engine? D'oh! )? I think Ducimus may have hit bullseye here, not only for the XXI, but for all the subs modelled in the game.

From all accounts i have read, youd think so. In SH3, here is my undertanding of this :

1. Silent running i think is a boolean toggle that increases your chance of detection. your either running normally and making a little noise , or your not. I do not think there's an acutal creep motor modeled. (this is conjecture on my part, and i could be wrong)

2.) The faster you go, the more RPMs you turn, the faster you use electrricity. In the case of the XXI, theres a big difference in bat comsumption from 3/4 kts and 7 knts (several hours difference)

3.) Detection forumula (once posted by Der Teddy Bear) by AI passive sonar has two major variables that stuck out to me. One was how rough the seas are, the bigger the waves the less they can hear, the other, more importanly is how many RPMs your turning. This is why sometimes when your in "ahead slow" in silent running, going to 1 or 2 kts (and thereby turning less RPMS) is even better.

Re the long recharge times,I tried a lot of values, not finding any other better than the ones settled in the fix (close to the ones that you initially suggested)

Yeah its a fine balancing act. Honestly i didnt experiment with it for more then a couple times, so im sure the settings i had, had room for improvement.

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Your right about the realism setting. What funny results did you get btw? I have a feeling it may be relating to fuel economy. As for the manoverabilty, when i chose to change it, i made my change based one two things
1. 3 pt turns suck
2. Too much manoverablity would be overpowering. I think i remember looking at the VIIC and the IX rudder drags and opted to use the IX settings since its not as manuverable as the VII, yet better then the XXI.

The funniest was that if the u-boat turned more than X degrees the "gears" switched, and it started moving backwards. In order to
go forward again, I had to press backwards. I used Bergen as my test site, so I didn't do a lot of distance in order to asses fuel data.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

To rephrase myself, going at ahead slow, i dont think the bats should be drained down to anywhere near the 40-50% mark in 6 hours. (10-12 hrs yes, 6 hrs no) I think this is what i was experiencing, and what i was trying to address. My memory could be foggy, i havent messed with it in awhile.

I see now what you mean...Maybe they drain because the ahead slow is faster than the actual (I think uboat.net states something like 350 @ 5 kn). This should be addressed in the next fix, along with the snorkel radar.

BTW, If you happen to know, In which SH3 folder should I start searching for the placement of the snorkel radar. Does the FumO-391 have a specific tga or dat file? Thanks!

I hope there are some u-gurus lurking here to contribute to the 3 issues discussed above:

1. Manoverability (turn radius @ speend X or XXI in comparison to other subs)
2. Creep engines / creep speed (actual speed of "ahead slow")
3. TGA / DAT files of XXI radars

For a slow ahead and less battery drain try this:

In your NSS_Uboat21.cfg file

[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.15
AheadOneThird=0.33
AheadStandard=0.50
AheadFull=0.80
AheadFlank=1.00

[Mast]

-bump-

Don't want this to go away.

Mast

[VonHelsching]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

[
1. Silent running i think is a boolean toggle that increases your chance of detection. your either running normally and making a little noise , or your not. I do not think there's an acutal creep motor modeled. (this is conjecture on my part, and i could be wrong)

2.) The faster you go, the more RPMs you turn, the faster you use electrricity. In the case of the XXI, theres a big difference in bat comsumption from 3/4 kts and 7 knts (several hours difference)

Well, if detection is a function of RPMs, this fix makes the XXI less detectable (by lessening the RPMs of the electrics...). If we push the RPMs even lower for fuel consumption it would be a silent as a fish...

If this is not the case, Cdre Gibbs' setting seem logical & realistic and will test them for a next version of the fix (along with the radar destroyed fix)


So, @ all

1. Did anyone notice difference in detectability with the fix?

2. Where should I start searching for the radar fix? (i.e. where are the equipment related graphics files?). I have already downloaded all SH3 graphics related software, and I'm ready for work (well, maybe next weekend)...Bear also in mind that I'm quite noob, I have extremely little time (I'm a manager in a consultancy), BUT I'm very persistent Any help would be appreciated.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

Well, if detection is a function of RPMs, this fix makes the XXI less detectable (by lessening the RPMs of the electrics...). If we push the RPMs even lower for fuel consumption it would be a silent as a fish...

I havent had my coffee yet, but are you sure your not thinking about E Motor Horse Power? Engines have two variables, HP, and RPM. I dont recall of the RPM being touched at all on the E motors, just the Diesals (and it was increased i beleive). Unless HP has a relation to RPM, as RPM has a relation to speed, then it shoudlnt effect how quiet a sub is at all. Even IF E Motor HP does indirectly effect RPM, you have to put it into perspective. A type 7 has 750 HP, and a type 9 has 1000 HP, so id hardly think 2500 HP would make it too quiet. Personnaly, while i cant prove it I suspect that theres also some variables with the hull that come into play. The XXI has always seemed a bit harder to detect, even before messing with its settings.

A good test to see if your too quiet is the U505 mission.

Ok, as far as the RWR, RADAR & RADIO Masts plus the snorkel - I WAS gonna redo the models BUT - PACK3d cant open the sensor DAT file.

The idea was, that I was going to permanetly fix the RWR to the TOP of the snorkel (where it belongs) and redo the RADAR ARRY so its correct and RAISED and the same deal for the Radio mast. Now I can repossition the RADAR and the RADIO masts BUT with out having ever seen the RADAR ARRY I have no bloody idea if its even there. So all thats left that can be done, is to raise the RADIO mast but since the rest at this stage cant be done, I see no point.

IF I could have opened the sensor dat file, I would have placed a dummy RWR model ontop of the snorkel. I'd have made it a Dummy model that basicaly would always be there on top of the snorkel, that would go up an down with the snorkel. It buy its self wouldn't actually have been the RWR as that would have then been reduced to 1 Vert and saved as a place holder model to go with the RWR when installed.

So until PACK3D's updated (dont hold ya breath) I cant do much more.

Sorry

[Mast]

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

Ok, as far as the RWR, RADAR & RADIO Masts plus the snorkel - I WAS gonna redo the models BUT - PACK3d cant open the sensor DAT file.

NOoooo!!

There's got to be a way to open that file. Others have done it in the past.

Mast