Newbie: How much do you "tip-toe"

[Angle]

Originally Posted by sonar732

Roll my eyes nothing...I almost spit my drink on my keyboard! :rotfl: :rotfl:

Heh. Well. One sensor you wouldn't normally use is active sonar. But against a player controlled FFG. Ping at will.

[Kapitan]

write a book eh bellman some of us already done hehe

[Three14]

I played slow and sneaky until I went online with the Seawolves back in the 688i days. Then I found that slow didn't matter much in the types of situations typical in the dives of those days.

Now I tend to play in more of that style (faster, bolder), online or off, at least in a nuclear sub (I've tried in the demo Kilo, too. Getting better at it). One big difference is that missions are more often designed with stricter time goals as compared to 688i H/K (in 1997), so hanging out at 2 knots isn't going to cut it. The second is simply that I'm better at evading and the like now, so the cost is much lower than it used to be, especially since single player AI tends to be conservative with torpedoes (though without mods they don't nearly snapshot on bearing enough, making slow and steady more viable).

The third is simply that it's more fun to move through the space. It gives me more of a feeling of making things happen and lets me think of being places far away. If I were in the habit of thinking more like a Kilo, it's easy for me to think about making all my moves within a small circle of water. For me, that takes away the "playground" fun and makes it more a "figure out what the designer wanted" challenge.

Part of why Bill Nichol's missions are always so appealing, I think, is that they have a lot of play to them. For these types of special challenges in a sub, slow and steady is good stuff, since they really don't know what's going on and you have more options going in.

[Bill Nichols]

I almost aways drive a 688 boat. The only times I 'go fast' are:

a) When the scenario requires me to get someplace quickly,
b) When 'escorting' a fast surface group, or
c) When evading torpedos.

Otherwise, I tend to stay at 5-6 knots, increasing to 8-9 knots when making TMA turns (higher speed helps the towed array straighten-out sooner).

[Apocal]

Originally Posted by sonar732

Roll my eyes nothing...I almost spit my drink on my keyboard! :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's stupid, but works...

A very high risk tactic Apocal for many reasons.

Not as much as one would think. No one I know of sits and watches the EW console, so they've never (to my knowledge) IDed my radar. I'm sure some figured out what it was, but by then a few Harpoons were using their ship as a landing pad.

One sensor you wouldn't normally use is active sonar. But against a player controlled FFG. Ping at will.

Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Wildcat]

You shall rue the day when FFG's get active sonar intercept.

[Bill Nichols]

Originally Posted by Apocal

This will probably make the "true" submariners onboard roll their eyes, but I've found that making a quick radar sweep is great for getting a workable firing solution on a surface unit. And more than once it's had the unexpected side benefit of revealing "drifters" (too) close by.

When I was umpire on a guided-missile cruiser during RIMPAC 82, an 'opposition' sub tried that trick on us (actually, he was using his periscope radar to get a range on us, but the idea is the same). We killed him faster than you can say "Torpedo in the water!".

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Siinji30

Hi. New to Dangerous Waters, and I´m trying to find a rythm for playing at. What speed are you usually travelling around with. When do you go lower than that? And if you´re trying to get a good TMA do you travel at 7-8 kts. (moving around a bit) with bearing changes to get better TMA? Or do you 3 kts. all the time to not get heard by the enemy? How much do you "tip-toe"? And what is recommended?

Lately I've been heavily into the FFG. I usually cruise at about 12-15kts. The idea is to defend against torpedos by keeping my limiting lines of approach narrow. If I go fast and zig-zag a lot, it's very difficult for a comparably submarine to close sufficiently to shoot a torpedo at me. That forces him to make a long-range ASCM attack. With a little bit of luck, and a lot of chaff and SM-2s, I can hopefully defend against it.

When I play a surface ship, I don't generally worry too much about the submarine detecting me from a long way away. If they are played skillfully, they should almost always detect me by some means before I can detect them. High speed will give me the ability to evade torpedos and keep the distances sufficiently opened that I can prosecute with a helo.

[JamesT73J]

The problem with 'sprint and drift' is that it tends to work well until you play someone that knows what they're doing, or you've got a sub nearby that you simply haven't noticed.

I used to this is in Subclub a while back with SC, until I kept getting caught out by 'slow and steady' players who were watching sonar closely. Remember that they only need to hear you the once to get a tracker on you. Even if they're 25kyds away, the moment they've got you you've lost the initiative, and there are some guys out there that can do monster TMA even at long range, thus you're immediately on the defensive and have basically given them control of the situation.

[Bellman]

Apocal:

''Not as much as one would think. No one I know of sits and watches the EW console,
so they've never (to my knowledge) IDed my radar.''

''To my knowledge'' :hmm: - For example the SW ESM sensor range is much greater than the effective range
of its opponent subs radar. And dont forget the radar beam travels over twice as far again as its effective range .
Then factor in the limitations to radar performance due to weather.

Slow and steady, cruise and crawl, is my preferred modus in LwAmi, but hey, I dont want to dissuade the 'bold and brave'....
.............Heck no !

Sometimes in MP, with limited playing time available, and a scenario with known longer range starting points,
you just have to get on with it, if you want other players to enjoy the experience and look for future rematches.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

The problem with 'sprint and drift' is that it tends to work well until you play someone that knows what they're doing, or you've got a sub nearby that you simply haven't noticed.

Sprint and drift is actually a good tactic for surface ships when it's properly employed. I think, there's actually some mathematics regarding how long to sprint and how long to drift that's intended to minimize the problem you are talking about. The trick to sprint and drift is that you're trying to maintain a high speed of advance, which will decrease the space in which submarines can start and approach to within a given distance. Combine this with zig zags and you'll be making it very difficult for them to get close while maximizing your sensor range.

Sprint and drift is actually a difficult tactic about which much has been said in books, but few people really know what they're doing with. Personally, I'd rather use fast or moderate speed on the FFG and slow speeds in a submarine.

[Apocal]

Originally Posted by Bellman

''To my knowledge'' :hmm: - For example the SW ESM sensor range is much greater than the effective range
of its opponent subs radar. And dont forget the radar beam travels over twice as far again as its effective range .
Then factor in the limitations to radar performance due to weather.

Detection isn't identification and there's no auto ID for EW contacts on frigates. Sea state aside, weather doesn't affect radar that much in DW.

Now, in real life, if I tried this, it would be dumb, because surface ships have a full time crew who do nothing but watch EW consoles and pride themselves on being able to ID nearly any emitter within seconds. DW, not so much.

Dumb question:

When I'm on the drift leg, how do I keep my towed array from drooping too far below? It falls beneath the layer and I can't hear anything, except far off cavitating subs and ships.

[sonar732]

A good rule of thumb is to deploy the towed array only to the 'S' of your indicator.

[compressioncut]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Sprint and drift is actually a difficult tactic about which much has been said in books, but few people really know what they're doing with. Personally, I'd rather use fast or moderate speed on the FFG and slow speeds in a submarine.

Sprint and drift for suface ships is very difficult because there are so many other concerns occupying the powers-that-be that you really have to dumb it down. We've tried it and it is preferred but man it's pretty theoretical. That's why the 5/50/5 rule is about as complicated as it gets, except maybe in tactics manuals.

You get tiny little TAPA boxes, SOAs at ridiculous speeds, the AAW nerds are always whining about something or other, SUBOPAUTH is jamming rules down your throat, the waterspace management doesn't jive with your standing OPTASK, SURTASS and air assets are cueing completely different locations and so and so forth ad nauseum. Real ASW is pretty damn awkward most of the time.

[Sub Sailor]

In 24 years I was never on a sub that emitted anything. I only saw radar used when entering and leaving port, and only if there were no bad guy trawlers off the entrance. I only heard sonar used when the Sonar guys were checking it.
Speed- transiet sprint/drift 25 knots slow to 4-5 after 5 -6 minutes check your baffles and off again. US Subs travel in a box, for safety. You are given radio check in times, and the box is so they can find you if you fail to report in. The orders will specify all of this and it is adhered to the letter.
Once you are on station and depending on orders you spend a lot of time at 4-5 knots, Boomer spend their whole life it seemed like at 3-4 knots. During the "Cold War" Boomer duty was about like watching grass grow. Thank God for WSRT and Engineering drills. BUT off crew was great. SSN stands for underway Saturday, Sunday and Nights.
Don't forget if you want a quick and easy way to find out if anyone is around, (not a sub), stick the periscope up you get signal and strength and from that you can tell how close they are. I believe they could even tell what the freq was, but not sure anymore.

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)