For those whom wish to play IJN.

[Harry Buttle]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

Yeah....but you always wonder. If they hadn't blown it at Midway. If they had used their submarines more often for commerce-raiding. Had they rotated veteran pilots from front-line duty to train recruits. If somebody had fired Nagumo early on might things be different? Probably not much different...but it is fun to speculate.

The Japs would have been hammered anyway - their industrial base was not in the same class as that of the allies (compare production in any category - artillery to aircraft carriers), they lacked capability in 2 crucial technical areas - radar and sonar (which meant the US sub fleet was going to destroy them anyway), they treated convoy protection with contempt, they ignored long term production, they ignored logistic reality in planning, the hatred between the army and navy meant they were unable to co-operate on operations or coordinate production of basic items.

[Torplexed]

True. With the Japanese re-visualizing history is kinda like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. That endless war in China also didn't help matters either. Their best option has probably not to go to war at all....and certainly not to start one with a galvanizing sneak attack.

[Harry Buttle]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

True. With the Japanese re-visualizing history is kinda like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. That endless war in China also didn't help matters either. Their best option has probably not to go to war at all....and certainly not to start one with a galvanizing sneak attack.

Yep, their culture forced them into a war that they were incapable of winning (China) and then dragged them into a suicidal sideshow (the Pacific War) to support it.

Even if the US had accepted the status quo in the Pacific post Pearl Harbour (utterly unthinkable), the USSR was still going to crush Japan in 1945 to regain lost territories.

Culturally impossible, but the Japs would have best profited from declaring for the allies in 1939/40 and sending most of their fleet to the Med and a Div or two in support roles, they could have then 'secured' the DEI for the Dutch and used the resources to push for a win in China (they would have to try to stop the extremely atrocity prone IJA from committing its worst excesses), I'm not saying they'd have won - but they would have had indirect allied assistance and would have secured a lot of immediately usable resources and couldn't have lost as badly as they did.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Harry Buttle

Culturally impossible, but the Japs would have best profited from declaring for the allies in 1939/40 and sending most of their fleet to the Med and a Div or two in support roles, they could have then 'secured' the DEI for the Dutch and used the resources to push for a win in China (they would have to try to stop the extremely atrocity prone IJA from committing its worst excesses), I'm not saying they'd have won - but they would have had indirect allied assistance and would have secured a lot of immediately usable resources and couldn't have lost as badly as they did.

That does sound (with hindsight) like a promising strategy. Japan cast her lot with the Allies in WW1 and got quite a few ex-German possessions out of it. Being a Allied Power in good faith probably would have sent some badly needed cutting-edge naval technology her way as well. (Sonar, Radar) But given her status as a signatory Axis Power and her unwillingness to concede anything in China or Asia...culturally impossible like you said. Their mindset at the time just wouldn't allow for compromises or half-victories.

One other possibility that I've seen brought up before would be if Germany had knocked the Soviet Union out of Europe in 1941 and Japan had then decided on going after whatever easy pickings were left of Stalin's regime in Siberia instead of going south. Frankly I don't feel Germany's chances in the Soviet Union were much better than Japan's against the Allies. However, Germany gave it their best shot and as well as they appeared to be doing in the summer and fall of '41 the Japanese had already made up their mind to turn elsewhere. So probably a moot point.

[Harry Buttle]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

One other possibility that I've seen brought up before would be if Germany had knocked the Soviet Union out of Europe in 1941 and Japan had then decided on going after whatever easy pickings were left of Stalin's regime in Siberia instead of going south. Frankly I don't feel Germany's chances in the Soviet Union were much better than Japan's against the Allies. However, Germany gave it their best shot and as well as they appeared to be doing in the summer and fall of '41 the Japanese had already made up their mind to turn elsewhere. So probably a moot point.

I think you are right there, Germany had little chance v the USSR (just comparing production of tanks is scary), the other factor is that the oil in Siberia had not been discovered at the time and Japan needed oil most of all.

Its what makes 'alternate war plans' so difficult for Japan - they had few options available to them and their culture closed the better options to them, so they were forced onto a very bad one way path.

[Godalmighty83]

in a round about kind of way japan lost its war when the US utilized adapted UK radar technology.

they just didnt know that they had lost.

[Torplexed]

The striking thing about the IJN and the Japanese military in general when you look back on it was their slavish mania for the offensive at the expense of defense. Everything was geared for the attack. They had destroyers and cruisers trained to a razor's edge for night surface attack with torpedoes and then guns. But they had virtually no training for ASW and woefully insufficent AA arament. They had as their primary fighter the Zero and the Betty as their primary naval strike plane. Both traded durability and protection for range and striking distance. Even in the vital carrier task forces ships sailed too far apart to properly support each with AA fire and fighter pilots on escort missions often peeled off to chase after planes before their charges reached their targets leaving them defenseless. The submarine fleet was trained to see itself as an extension of the Battle Fleet and to go after capital ships and to regard merchants as less than honorable prey. Even though they had the finest torpedo in the world at the time. As in the one case noted in the post above you even had subs equipped with attack planes.

That epitome of last ditch weapons, the Kamikaze was offensive in nature. Their last remaining operational battleship, the Yamato was sent in on a hopeless "attack" run.

This extended even to the army with suicidal banzai charges when digging in and holding ground would have bought more time. However, the Japnese Army certainly showed in New Guinea, Iwo Jima, and Palau it could be quite tenacious in defense when it wanted too.

Just shows what a lack of balance can do.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The striking thing about the IJN and the Japanese military in general when you look back on it was their slavish mania for the offensive at the expense of defense. Everything was geared for the attack. They had destroyers and cruisers trained to a razor's edge for night surface attack with torpedoes and then guns. But they had virtually no training for ASW and woefully insufficent AA arament. They had as their primary fighter the Zero and the Betty as their primary naval strike plane. Both traded durability and protection for range and striking distance. Even in the vital carrier task forces ships sailed too far apart to properly support each with AA fire and fighter pilots on escort missions often peeled off to chase after planes before their charges reached their targets leaving them defenseless. The submarine fleet was trained to see itself as an extension of the Battle Fleet and to go after capital ships and to regard merchants as less than honorable prey. Even though they had the finest torpedo in the world at the time. As in the one case noted in the post above you even had subs equipped with attack planes.

That epitome of last ditch weapons, the Kamikaze was offensive in nature. Their last remaining operational battleship, the Yamato was sent in on a hopeless "attack" run.

This extended even to the army with suicidal banzai charges when digging in and holding ground would have bought more time. However, the Japnese Army certainly showed in New Guinea, Iwo Jima, and Palau it could be quite tenacious in defense when it wanted too.

Just shows what a lack of balance can do.

Good summary. Somebody knows his Pacific war.

[Torplexed]

Thanks Tak! I lived in Okinawa for a few years as an Air Force brat. I think something stuck.

[Harry Buttle]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

But they had virtually no training for ASW and woefully insufficent AA arament.

You may have read it, but if you haven't , "The Japanese Merchant Marine in WW2" by Mark Parillo is a stunning read - it is full of "You have got to be kidding, they CAN'T have been that stupid" moments.

it pops up on Amazon.com and is well worth getting hold of.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Harry Buttle

You may have read it, but if you haven't , "The Japanese Merchant Marine in WW2" by Mark Parillo is a stunning read - it is full of "You have got to be kidding, they CAN'T have been that stupid" moments.

it pops up on Amazon.com and is well worth getting hold of.

I've haven't got that one. It does sound like an interesting read. If I recall correctly the Japanese would often send merchant ships south into the Southern Resource Area filled with troops or supplies. Then they would return... empty! An incredible waste of shipping for a maritime nation already strapped for such. Sounds like Parillo found even more bloopers in the shipping department.

[Harry Buttle]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

I've haven't got that one. It does sound like an interesting read. If I recall correctly the Japanese would often send merchant ships south into the Southern Resource Area filled with troops or supplies. Then they would return... empty! An incredible waste of shipping for a maritime nation already strapped for such. Sounds like Parillo found even more bloopers in the shipping department.

Oh yes, you think of anything wrong you could do in the shipping, convoy, convoy protection, ship production or planning areas and the Japs did it.

re your example above, yes they would return empty and pass an empty convoy going in the other direction to pick up resources, then throw in the fact that the IJA and IJN ran independent supply systems so that sort of waste was happening twice.

Parillo also goes into the production of ships and the requisitioning of ships from the civilian sector, as well as the spiteful approach of both the IJA and the IJN to drafting civilians that were working in vital support areas for the other service.