What they do in the real world? - Page 2

TLAM Strike · 10-01-05, 01:26 AM

Compressioncut is right there are lots of well defined rules for Subs operating near surface ships and vice versa. The Navy learned its lesson and paid for it with blood in WWII, remember the Seawolf? They have 1,000 page reports on every aspect of that incident and others for determining SOP for todayâ€™s operations so it doesnâ€™t happen again.

ReubenJames · 10-02-05, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

I would have thought SSN escorts don't work that close in to CVBGs, it's not worth running the risk of having them MISIDENT it as a hostile. Plus, further away from the CVBG the sonar picture is clearer.

Actually, there is such a thing as underwater telephone. All they have to do is pick it up and say, "hey? is that you?" Subs aren't as out of touch with other warships as they are sometimes given credit for.

Gertrude (the 'underwater telephone') is very short range and often unreliable. And, in a wartime situation, if an escort thinks it may have an enemy sub nearby (within Gertrude range), the last thing it's CO wants to do is to pick up his Gertrude handset and say, "hey, are you a friendly?" :|\

Oberon is right on the money -- Direct Support subs want to stay away from the battlegroup -- both to aid their own sonar performance, and for self-protection from 'friendly' forces.

Our satellite can see us. And why don't we use e-mail? They dont produce any offensive sound/noise except that ding-dong out of the laptop's speaker.

Sub Sailor · 10-02-05, 08:23 AM

Ideally, if you have the assets, three boats are used in Direct Support one boat way out ahead of the group, 100-130 nm, the other two boats will be on either side 15-20 nm.
Probably now with cutbacks, two boats out ahead covering a 180 dgree arc, these I imagine would still operate well in advance of the group.
Direct Suport (DS), was intended to remove a sub threat, and cruise missiles have made this more difficult, that is why they nedd to be far ahead. I am not sure of the range of enemy cruise missiles, not sure, hell I don't know, but I would guess 200-300 nm, and with Recon Satellites they could get targeting data, so the DS subs need to be out far enlught to find and stip SSGNs. If you have the assests the two close in subs are really looking for Fast Attacks.
I hopr this helps in your efforts, and also I have been away from active duty a long time, Moby Dick was a minnow when I retired, so maybe someone currently on active duty could provide more up to date info on how Direct Support is done now.
The leading sub probably still uses sprint and drift to maintain position, used to be 25 minutes at 25 knots, and five knots at 4-5 knots and the boat(s) are assigned a ASW kill zone, theory the only friendly subs are you and your mate anyone else is assumed hostile and could be attacked.

Respectfully,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

XabbaRus · 10-02-05, 05:04 PM

I thought the Russians were big on co-op ASW tactics with an area of sea mapped out into sub, ASW frigate, and asw air zones, and basically they stick to that zone so as to avoid friendly fire.

Sub Sailor · 10-03-05, 08:47 AM

XabbaRus;
I am not sure how the Russian ran DS, they had ASW patrol areas for Surface an Air in their declared areas, Barents Sea etc..
Their subs had patrol areas off most of our major bases. Also when studying the Russian Navy in the "Cold War" period, they used Trawlers a lot. We became very good at tricking them, we always had to dodge them coming out of Scotland and Rota. You have all seen pictures of them, there used to be one station off Cape Kennedy all the time.
I was addressing how we ran DS in the 60s-80s, now I am not sure how we do it.

Respectfully,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

10-01-05, 01:26 AM	#16
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Compressioncut is right there are lots of well defined rules for Subs operating near surface ships and vice versa. The Navy learned its lesson and paid for it with blood in WWII, remember the Seawolf? They have 1,000 page reports on every aspect of that incident and others for determining SOP for todayâ€™s operations so it doesnâ€™t happen again. __________________

10-02-05, 08:23 AM	#18
Sub Sailor Commander Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Orofino, Idaho Posts: 443 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	Direct support of CVBG Ideally, if you have the assets, three boats are used in Direct Support one boat way out ahead of the group, 100-130 nm, the other two boats will be on either side 15-20 nm. Probably now with cutbacks, two boats out ahead covering a 180 dgree arc, these I imagine would still operate well in advance of the group. Direct Suport (DS), was intended to remove a sub threat, and cruise missiles have made this more difficult, that is why they nedd to be far ahead. I am not sure of the range of enemy cruise missiles, not sure, hell I don't know, but I would guess 200-300 nm, and with Recon Satellites they could get targeting data, so the DS subs need to be out far enlught to find and stip SSGNs. If you have the assests the two close in subs are really looking for Fast Attacks. I hopr this helps in your efforts, and also I have been away from active duty a long time, Moby Dick was a minnow when I retired, so maybe someone currently on active duty could provide more up to date info on how Direct Support is done now. The leading sub probably still uses sprint and drift to maintain position, used to be 25 minutes at 25 knots, and five knots at 4-5 knots and the boat(s) are assigned a ASW kill zone, theory the only friendly subs are you and your mate anyone else is assumed hostile and could be attacked. Respectfully, Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

10-02-05, 05:04 PM	#19
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I thought the Russians were big on co-op ASW tactics with an area of sea mapped out into sub, ASW frigate, and asw air zones, and basically they stick to that zone so as to avoid friendly fire. __________________

10-03-05, 08:47 AM	#20
Sub Sailor Commander Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Orofino, Idaho Posts: 443 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	Russian ASW XabbaRus; I am not sure how the Russian ran DS, they had ASW patrol areas for Surface an Air in their declared areas, Barents Sea etc.. Their subs had patrol areas off most of our major bases. Also when studying the Russian Navy in the "Cold War" period, they used Trawlers a lot. We became very good at tricking them, we always had to dodge them coming out of Scotland and Rota. You have all seen pictures of them, there used to be one station off Cape Kennedy all the time. I was addressing how we ran DS in the 60s-80s, now I am not sure how we do it. Respectfully, Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)