Russian Deep-Sea Vessel Stuck, Trapping 7

[Duncan Idaho]

Originally Posted by RAM

I really hope that if another "Kursk-like" incident happens in the future Russia will set aside any considerations about egos, secrets and other stupid (In today's world) considerations and put the task of saving the crews' life in the first priority.

That's the spirit! Well said.

Meanwhile, let us all hope these guys make it home. I cannot imagine what they must be going through.

[Kafka]

Originally Posted by RAM

maybe the language barrier didn't let me put my thoughts straight.

I think, like you do, that it makes no difference comparing one thing with another. Which is exactly the point: 150 lifes were lost aboard Kursk. I hope Putin and those who took the decission not to ask for help back then ,have called for assistance now because they learnt their lessons some years ago. Not because this time there are only 7 lifes to save aboard a technologically not-that-important vessel.


The Russian federation has called for foreign assistance this time, yes. That's what matters here, yes. They have done the right thing, yes. But lets not forget that had they done a similar thing when the Kursk sank, there could be a chance that those who perished on board would be living today. And that also matters here.

I really hope that if another "Kursk-like" incident happens in the future Russia will set aside any considerations about egos, secrets and other stupid (In today's world) considerations and put the task of saving the crews' life in the first priority.

Otherwise it means that 150 lifes were lost for nothing aboard the Kursk. And that would be YET another treason to them.

So RAM, you do agree with us to an extent, whether a Kursk comparison makes sense or not in this case. And I agree 100% with you, you merely elaborated on what I and another guy were saying, but expressed in two short sentences.

[Type941]

It's very easy to judge RAM. I can be very good in that also... But the point stands - other country wouldn't do [ask for help] it with a case like a nuclear sub. But let me make it more clear - US wouldn't ask russia and russia wouldn't ask US! Yuo want an example? Right now, the Discovery shuttle is in danger but there's no way the US would ask for any help - why? Pride of their national space program may be? Up to you to judge on that, but I'm not impressed with how it's being handled... If someone wants to kid themselves about the end of cold war, I'm not- at least about its new form - both countries still consider themselves as potential enemeis when you scratch the surfaces. Of course - it's about the governments - the oil driven war-waging american, and the superpower-complex russian.

The people would always get along just fine.

Russians handled the Kursk situation miserably, but from every source I've read - the 118 (or 119, but not 150) people that died in Kursk had very little chance since the 9th compartment escape hatch was damaged and wouldn't allow the hollywood type docking with a rescue sub. There were 23 or so people there after the explosion, and their fate no doubt was awful. Either way, I hope those 7 crewman get rescuewed but it's a bit strange to see people getting impression that Russia changed some approach to handlng such situations. It's just totally different scale of the event, and they'd always react in similar way to this type of event. Just like if there's another major event with a nuclear sub - they are unlikely to ask for help.

ALl the secret stuff we don't care about - they do. And it's been like that for years, and will stay that way as well.

[Duncan Idaho]

Originally Posted by Type941

Right now, the Discovery shuttle is in danger but there's no way the US would ask for any help - why? Pride of their national space program may be? Up to you to judge on that, but I'm not impressed with how it's being handled...

I can't agree, after all Discovery's docked at the International Space Station right now, which has been upkept and supplied by the Russian's while our shuttles were down. Our Astronaut's have had to hitch rides up with the Russians. Perhaps using the Discovery isn't a great example for your point. I think we've shown great cooperation with the Russians, (and they with us), at least in the Space agency.

But your point carries some weight when applied to the Military. I cannot disagree with what you said about that at all.

[Type941]

Oh Duncan, I hope I'm wrong with the Discovery example.

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Type941

It's very easy to judge RAM. I can be very good in that also... But the point stands - other country wouldn't do [ask for help] it with a case like a nuclear sub. But let me make it more clear - US wouldn't ask russia and russia wouldn't ask US! Yuo want an example? Right now, the Discovery shuttle is in danger but there's no way the US would ask for any help - why? Pride of their national space program may be? Up to you to judge on that, but I'm not impressed with how it's being handled...

not sure about exactly how much risk the Discovery runs of being destroyed upon returning to earth. I hope and I believe that it's very low. Otherwise USA would not let Discovery com back ,and send Atlantis in a rescue mission as was planned on advance.

And if there was no Atlantis for a rescue, I'm convinced they would ask for help not only from Russia but also from the ESA, if their help could improve the situation somewhat.

One thing I've learnt about the americans is-they don't let down the people who risk their life on dangerous missions for their nation, and so they do the utmost to rescue and save them from death. I think it has more to do with the american people sensibility about the loss of lifes without a proper effort to save them, than with actual will to ask for foreign cooperation at a gubernamental level. However, US people vote their president each 4 years, and that is VERY important when deciding what and what not to do.


NASA's pride is already damaged beyond repair (at least on the short run) because they have already admitted they sent the Discovery without the proper measures to ensure that Columbia's explosion won't happen again. The mere fact they have allowed that in public makes me think that they would spare nothing to save those astronauts' lifes if they were in serious danger. And that includes calling for help coming from another space programs, Russian or European.

If I get the signs right I think americans are pretty pissed at NASA for putting those people on such a danger without taking all the measures required to make the passage the safest one possible, including not doing it at all. I don't want to think what would happen if those lifes are lost because NASA didn't ask for help. Probably NASA would collapse if that happens.

As it is the shuttle program is closed (they haven't said it that way, but that's a fact) as soon as the Discovery touches down.


Anyway I don't want this thread to run off-topic, so...

Russians handled the Kursk situation miserably, but from every source I've read - the 118 (or 119, but not 150) people that died in Kursk had very little chance since the 9th compartment escape hatch was damaged and wouldn't allow the hollywood type docking with a rescue sub. There were 23 or so people there after the explosion, and their fate no doubt was awful.

I'm not saying that foreign help would have guaranteed the rescue of those men who died aboard Kursk (I really don't care about the number either). They would have probably died anyway, and I'm well aware of that fact.

The thing here is that at least they would have died serving a military and government who would do the utmost to save their lifes...not betrayed by a government wich put their desire to save face before going wherever it was required to rescue them.


About an US Sub having such a problem on board...I really think that if russian intervention could save an american submarine's crew that otherwise would be lost because there was no time to do anything else, USA would indeed ask for russian help.

Doing it otherwise would spell doom for any US administration as soon as the news made it into the press. And probably people would ask for certain members of that administration to be judged. No administration would run with that risk on today's world.

I say that because I think I know americans and how they think about their soldier's lives...maybe I'm wrong?. Not sure, I'm spanish, but I've been posting in many american forums for the last years...and that's the impression I got.

Either way, I hope those 7 crewman get rescuewed but it's a bit strange to see people getting impression that Russia changed some approach to handlng such situations. It's just totally different scale of the event, and they'd always react in similar way to this type of event. Just like if there's another major event with a nuclear sub - they are unlikely to ask for help.

and that's just my point. I also don't think this disgrace changes the fact that Putin&Co learnt nothing from the Kursk loss... I hope I'm wrong, but I think I'm not.

ALl the secret stuff we don't care about - they do. And it's been like that for years, and will stay that way as well.

I would understand that attitude in a 1970-vintage world, with a real reason to keep those secrets from the enemy. Today is a different matter. As far as I know, Russia and USA are not enemies any longer, there is no threat of a 3rd war erupting between them, and IIRC cold war ended some years ago.

I understand the military reluctance to put in danger the secrets hidden within a nuclear submarine, but I do not understand it if they take the decission to let a complete crew die an horrific death because there may be (not that there will be, may be) some chances that those secrets are not any more after the rescue.

In any case that is a moot point, IIRC Kursk was raised and recovered with foreign assistance, so giving away any secrets they intended to keep hidden. They could have thought it before.

[Type941]

One thing I've learnt about the americans is-they don't let down the people who risk their life on dangerous missions for their nation,

Well... When I look at how the Iraqi war unfolds, I'm not so sure.

About an US Sub having such a problem on board...I really think that if russian intervention could save an american submarine's crew that otherwise would be lost because there was no time to do anything else, USA would indeed ask for russian help.

I disagree on that. I firmly believe that the US Navy would no way in heck allow the Russians near its vessels. Don't forget, the US can easily call in on support of their NATO allies (and it would do that no doubt) - something Russia can't and won't do for political reasons and military reasons. Don't forget that there are many russians who still want to believe that it was the american or british sub that sunk the Kursk, that Russia got paid off in a following conference with a huge debt release that was handled by Putin/Clinton and that the whole thing is a cover up. The fact that such payments took place is a fact, but whether its connected - that's another matter.

As far as I know, Russia and USA are not enemies any longer, there is no threat of a 3rd war erupting between them, and IIRC cold war ended some years ago.

Actually, with the growth of China and India, Russia has probably decided that it needs to be nice with Europe (60% of its trade is with europe - can't screw that up) and establish a strong alliance with Asia. But from what I've been seeing, they are very keen to push the US out of all the air bases they are occupying in the former soviet south asian republics, they are pissed off at all the support the US provides to the opposition in those same republics, and in general, they feel threatened by the US way of international politics. Their national secretary who isnt' excatly a piece maker probably doesn't help things either! Especially that she can handle russia pretty well when it comes to US national interests that in no way coincide with the american interests. I'm glad you feel safe about it, but I have some doubts about the sincerety of Russian-american relations on a governmental level. And trust me - Putin is doing a rather good job in keeping away from major media some of the stuff you hear inside russia about how the russian foreign policy should be run. There's a bunch of radicals who'd bomb the heck out of anyone that dares to put another radar into the baltic states for crying out loud (and I live here).! We all live our lives, do our work, school, etc, but I am not that at ease about the situation in foreing policy and the general balance of power.
This whole teething opposition under the surface is basically about US wanting a leading role in the world policy and Russia that doesn't want a single power policing the world order. OR. The whole problem with Russia is that it wants to get back to world superpower level and feels threatened by the enourmous influence the US carries around the world, including in almost all countries around its borders. Either version i think is close to truth.

there is no threat of a 3rd war erupting between them,

there is a view that we are living in one already - albeit not between those 2 countries.

In my humble opinion, you hold a very optimistic view about what the US Navy would do in case of a Kursk like event - I on the other hand have a much less optimistic perseption of a few people in power that actually make the decisions. NO doubt that navy man themselves would help the other navy man without any hesitation. But the people in charge?...

In modern world, it's rarely about what the 'we, the people' want or think is just. Of course, it's just my opinion on it, and I understand it might not be shared by many or please some. You imply that the americans are caring and decent, while the russian would not care less about their people dying - and you say there's no more cold war thinking around?

[RAM]

Originally Posted by Type941

I disagree on that. I firmly believe that the US Navy would no way in heck allow the Russians near its vessels. Don't forget, the US can easily call in on support of their NATO allies (and it would do that no doubt) - something Russia can't and won't do for political reasons and military reasons.

I still think that if an US Sub is sunk and has crew on board that will die in a few hours, and the only asset able to lend any kind of help nearby happens to be russian because there's no time for own or allied assets to reach the place in time to conduct a rescue mission, USA would indeed call for Russian help.

The military leadership won't like it a thing. Probably the government itself won't like it either. But if word reaches the press that there are one hundred american sailors dead aboard that submarine, and that had the US government called for help they would have had a chance to survive (as small as that chance may be), I am sure that the outcry between the american people would spell said government's immediate doom, or ,at the very least, would mean for sure a non-reelected president.

In modern world, it's rarely about what the 'we, the people' want or think is just.

I agree but I still think there are certain limits to that. There's a difference between seeing your nation's soldiers die in a foreign war (even if it is as pollemic one as Irak's) because wars always take a toll on soldier's lifes, and seeing your nation's soldiers dead because the leadership decided that they would rather spend 100 of it's soldiers lifes before calling for help from a no-friend nation.

The first causes unhappiness between certain sectors of the electoral base and certainly is not popular. The second would set the entire nation against their president for such a decision.


As I said, I'm not american, but I've been long in american forums and read a lot from them and in their own words. I may be wrong, but I think that I'm right on this particular matter. Maybe some american guy can answer us .

You imply that the americans are caring and decent, while the russian would not care less about their people dying - and you say there's no more cold war thinking around?

no, no way I'm saying that.

I imply that American democracy may be better or worse, but is deeply marked in each american citizen. They have known no other political system ,and they really know to get their voice heard if the need arises. An "american kursk" incident handled by the US leadership in a "Russian way" would've caused such a scandal and civil outcry in USA that I'm pretty sure that the president would've had to resign.


On the other side the Russians have always lived in a totalitarian system. Czarist first, soviet then. Democracy is new for them and they really don't realize how much power the people has in a democracy. They simply don't have a tradition of having their voices heard...in fact until 20 years ago or so doing it meant prison, so they usually simply don't raise it even when today they nominally can do it.
Another fact is that Ex-soviet people are used to ruthless coming from the state. Individuals have never mattered nothing to the state. It was true for the Czar, it was true for the Soviets...they're used to it and now that the situation is MUCH better (as bad as it is, it's much better...had the Kursk thing happened within the Soviet Union, probably the involved families would have had no information on how their loved ones died, much less the chance to bury their bodies) they don't react as harshly as the US people would do in similar circunstances.
Also, democracy is new in russia, and noone knows up to which point is not a real democracy but another thing in disguise.



I'm not implying anything about russian people's decency. The people as a mass usually is VERY Decent, be it Iraqi, Russian, American, Japanese or Ethiopian...the corrupt and dirty ones usually are those in power.
But when those on powers have to answer directly to the people, however, they're forced to take decissions they won't otherwise. In russia the government has to answer to their people, but their people is used to much worse things so they really don't cause much worry when things like Kursk happen.


In short, what I mean is that US leadership is much more influenced by their people than the Russian one. So the latter doesn't ask for help and survived the kursk incident. The former won't have survived such a thing, not at least if it was made public (and it would).

That's what I meant.

[Type941]

I want to agree that the americans will hold the government accountable and it would cause a major outcry in case of a an event when a lot of people lose their lives because of government's incopentancy and failure to do certain things.. but when the people who masterminded the iraqi war and who are responsible for those soldiers risking their lives everyday, still stay in power without questioning - I am not sure I agree with your belief in how much power the people carry in the best developed democracy!


I thought that after a number of events in Iraq, all hell would break loose and the people in US would demand answers about what exaclty goes on in Iraq, why is taking so long, etc. But nothing! Rummy recently said it might be up to 12 years for them to fighting in Iraq. Think about that statement, and how much we've heard the 'people' responding to this. It appears to me that the republican majority firmly has the grip on the country's key positions and the right wing media has totally blasted apart the decmocrats... It seems that a very normal word 'Liberal' has become there as an insult and a namecalling term when referred to democrats. In other words - the Bush Dynasty is ruling and apparently noone's asking any questions, and that worries me.

All this coming back to the power of people who question their government. Apparently the consensus is that the government is right no matter what, and not supporting it during the time of war on terror is unpatriotic. I think that that great democratic government is just scaring people do death every time with their alerts, etc.

Anyway I don't want this thread to run off-topic, so...

Say what? :hmm:

[Kafka]

Seems the Japanese navy is also involved in the rescue operation. Truly a dramatic race against time. It's early Sat morning over there, right now, isn't it?

[Type941]

yes it is. 8 am as they are having the Hiroshima memorial service.

[Capn Tucker]

The shuttle program is NOT closed as soon as the Discovery touches down. The fleet is merely temporarily grounded until the foam insulation issue with the fuel tank is resolved.
Although, I am astounded that wasn't fixed after all that's happened. NASA really has their head up their a$$ IMO. And there's an easy fix for this. The first few shuttle flights launched, had a smooth white covering over the fuel tank. But this was judged too expensive, so the flights afterward had the cover removed.
But HELLO, people have died because of it, and more still may! They need to stop listening to the bean counters, and do what's necessary for safe operations. Sheesh!

[Sawdust]

According to cnn.com, the Russian bathyscaphe crew was rescued and everyone is okay.